In Episode 132 of “The Trusted Advisor,” RSPA CEO Jim Roddy talks with RSPA General Counsel Atty. Jill Miller about the latest developments related to the Corporate Transparency Act.
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Full episode transcript via Apple Podcasts:
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Roddy: Hi, Jim Roddy here from the RSPA, jumping in before today’s podcast to make sure you know that registration is now open for RetailNOW 2025, the Retail Technology Channel’s number one trade show, education conference and networking event.
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Roddy: Join RSPA and Retail IT Channel leaders live and in person, July 27th through the 29th, on the strip in Las Vegas at Caesar’s Palace.
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Roddy: With nearly 200 exhibitors, RetailNOW is one-stop shopping for VARS and ISVs.
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Roddy: And with an expected 1,600 or more attendees, it’s the place for extreme industry connectivity.
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Roddy: Across just 48 hours, you’ll meet new partners and new solution providers who can accelerate the success of your business.
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Roddy: If you’re serious about the Retail IT Channel, you have to attend RetailNOW 2025, again, July 27th through 29th in Vegas.
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Roddy: RetailNOW is where the industry meets.
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Roddy: For all the details and to register at discounted early bird rates, visit the RetailNOW website today at gorsp.org/retailnow.
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Roddy: That’s gorsp.org/retailnow.
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Roddy: Enjoy today’s episode featuring one of the most popular RetailNOW speakers and one of our industry’s leading experts on cash discounting and surcharging, RSPA General Counsel, Attorney Jill Miller.
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Roddy: Welcome to another episode of The Trusted Advisor podcast and video series powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association.
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Roddy: Our goal on the pod is to accelerate the success of today’s and tomorrow’s leaders in the retail IT industry.
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Roddy: I’m Jim Roddy back with you again.
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Roddy: Thank you so much for joining us.
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Roddy: Now today on the podcast, we have a return guest making her record 12th appearance on The Trusted Advisor is RSPA General Counsel, Attorney Jill Miller.
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Roddy: Jill, welcome back.
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Miller: Why, thank you.
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Miller: Am I still the one who has the most number?
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Roddy: You are.
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Roddy: There would be a lot of catch up.
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Roddy: You are by far and away our most recurring guest, I would say.
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Roddy: So yeah, you’re an even dozen at this point.
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Roddy: Nobody’s gotten even close to double digits yet.
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Roddy: So congratulations.
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Miller: Okay.
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Miller: I’ve got to keep on it.
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Miller: Yes.
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Roddy: Absolutely.
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Roddy: And then the next one will be a baker’s dozen.
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Roddy: So keep putting a gap between you at the top and the rest of the field.
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Roddy: So now for folks who haven’t tuned in to one of those prior podcasts, just so you know, Jill’s a partner at Detroit-based law firm Bodmin PLC.
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Roddy: She serves as RSPA Legal Counsel since 2020, providing advice to all members, but especially VARs and ISVs.
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Roddy: Now that advice is available at no extra charge to RSPA members through phone calls, emails, video chats and in-person meetings at RSPA events.
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Roddy: So Jill’s been involved in our industry for several years, counseling clients on data privacy, cybersecurity, card processing, mobile payments, ACH, electronic fund transfers, I’m going to have to take a breath, virtual currencies and more.
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Roddy: Her sessions on cash discounting and surcharging and dual pricing, the past two RetailNOW events were a huge hit.
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Roddy: So Jill, what is the topic you want to focus on today?
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Roddy: What’s something you’ve been fielding a lot of questions from RSPA VAR and ISV members about?
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Roddy: What’s something you think they should know about?
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Miller: I think today we’re going to talk about the Corporate Transparency Act, otherwise known as the CTA.
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Roddy: All right.
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Roddy: Very good.
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Roddy: Tell us a little bit about that and what our members should know.
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Miller: Sure.
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Miller: As Jim mentioned, when I start to receive a lot of questions from our members through e-mail or phone calls about a particular topic, a light bulb goes off and I say, I think it’s something we should talk about to the general membership, so they have the benefit of the research and the knowledge that I’ve gained over a particular topic.
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Miller: Corporate Transparency Act has been a lot of questions I’ve received from our members.
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Miller: The history of the Corporate Transparency Act is that in 2021, Congress passed the Corporate Transparency Act.
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Miller: This law was created as a way in which to fight what Congress and the government would say are bad actors in the corporate world, who have received ill-gotten funds and just really trying to protect the US and how funds are used and transferred within the United States ecosystem.
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Miller: And so, the Corporate Transparency Act really is about filing information with FinCEN, and it’s about the beneficial owners of companies.
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Miller: And it really covers all kinds of companies within the US, and foreign entities that are doing business in the US.
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Miller: And what that means is companies are, we’re our, let’s, I’ll get to the fun stuff later.
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Miller: The requirement of the CTA was that companies would have to provide through a online reporting system that was created by FinCEN, and they would have to list beneficial owners.
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Miller: Now, what are beneficial owners?
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Miller: Beneficial owners are either one of two categories.
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Miller: It basically, I’m reading my notes here because it’s some specific language.
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Miller: It refers to the individuals who ultimately own or control the business.
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Miller: And so it’s, again, just a specific definition is either you control or otherwise manage, direct the company, for example, a CEO, or a some other kind of business executive, and anybody who owns 25% or more of that company.
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Miller: So in some companies, you may have 10 owners who only own 10% each.
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Miller: And so none of them would have to be, their information would not have to be provided to FinCEN.
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Miller: But you have to have somebody who’s controlling the company.
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Miller: And so that’s how, if you have an entity that doesn’t have anybody who owns more than 25%, then you go to the prong of who’s really controlling and directing the activities of the entity.
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Miller: So there is no maximum number of beneficial owners that can be reported in a beneficial owner situation.
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Miller: And so as I mentioned, when the CTA was originally enacted in 2021, it wasn’t until January 1st, 2024, where they actually set up the e-filing system.
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Miller: And so back then, the law said that for a company who was organized or otherwise registered prior to January 1st, 2024, they had until January 1st, 2025, to actually file with Vinson on this online reporting portal, the information about their company.
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Miller: And for companies that were created or registered on or after January 1st, 2025, those folks had 30 days to file after receiving sort of information that they actually are in existence and the registration was effective.
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Miller: So again, companies that were created or registered prior to 2024 had until January 2025, and then those companies that were registered on or after January 1st, 2025, had to file within 30 days.
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Miller: Now, if a reporting…
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Roddy: I can just say, so people now are listening and going, oh, okay, this should all be done.
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Roddy: Everybody should have filed by this point because we’re recording this in mid-March of 2025.
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Roddy: But let’s see, there’s the rest of the story, I think is what you’re going to lead us into.
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Miller: Yeah, I just sort of wanted to give people a background.
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Miller: And there’s one group of people that I didn’t yet mention, which is anybody who actually was registered and enacted their company in 2024, right?
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Miller: So I didn’t yet talk about those folks.
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Miller: We talked about prior to 2024.
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Miller: We talked about after January.
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Miller: But those folks who actually entered and became a company in 2024, they had 90 days in 2024 to do the reporting.
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Miller: So while a lot of various entities were out there, and we talked about this, Jim, in our weekly meetings, there were a lot of companies out there sending emails to companies saying, hey, we can do this on your behalf for such a small fee of X.
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Miller: Now, FinCEN had said in some of their printed documentation that they felt as though a majority of the companies should be able to go on there themselves and just simply file the information.
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Miller: Now, as a law firm, we had a lot of companies come to us and ask us to assist them with the reporting.
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Miller: Initially, we were sort of, it seems like a service that we necessarily didn’t think was the best use of our clients’ resources, but when they just felt uncomfortable, we said, okay, let’s figure out a program, let’s figure out a way to file on their behalf.
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Miller: There are 23 types of companies that are exempted from having to do this filing, and I think for me, the two most common we saw in the last 18 months were nonprofits, otherwise known as tax-exempt entities, and large operating companies.
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Miller: So we have clients who fell into this category, and this category was a company who had more than 20 full-time employees and had revenue in excess of $5 million, and you had to have a tax filing to prove that you had the in excess of $5 million.
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Roddy: So the large companies get excluded from this?
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Roddy: So it’s more SMBs?
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Miller: Yeah, it really was.
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Miller: It really was, I think, part of that.
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Miller: I think because many times some of these larger companies are reporting in other various ways.
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Miller: For example, there has always been, not always, in a sense, at the beginning of time, but there has been the whole KYC know your customer.
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Miller: And under the KYC rules, banks have an obligation to collect beneficial ownership information from its customers who want to open an account.
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Miller: And that is, again, another way in which the government was trying to prevent terrorist funding and things of that nature.
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Miller: So banks and their collection of beneficial ownership has been going on for quite some time, but it is not duplicative of the requirements under CTA.
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Miller: So even if you’ve applied for a loan and we’re saying, I’ve already provided somebody my beneficial ownership information, that information is not considered filing with the CTA or with the FinCEN for the CTA.
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Miller: So do you have any questions?
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Miller: I can see you hanging on every word here.
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Miller: I could just keep going if you’re good.
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Roddy: No, I keep going because it’s interesting because most regulations, it applies to if you’re a certain size but below this threshold, don’t worry about it.
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Roddy: But this seems like it’s trying to take care of those fake shell companies that people put together to try to hide money, is what it sounds like.
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Miller: You’re exactly right.
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Roddy: Well, thank you.
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Roddy: You sound like I have a lot of experience with that.
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Roddy: I have no experience with that whatsoever.
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Roddy: I’m just connecting the dots here.
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Miller: Yes, yes, great.
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Miller: Okay, so the information that a reporting company has to file is its legal name, any trade names, doing business as names, its current address, the jurisdiction of where it’s actually formed, and then their tax identification number.
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Miller: Now, for the beneficial owners, they have to provide their name, their date of birth, an identifying number from an acceptable form of ID, like a driver’s license or a passport, and you actually have to provide a copy of that.
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Miller: Now, we’re getting into some of these privacy concerns.
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Miller: I think that’s another reason why a lot of our clients felt comfortable using a law firm because we have privacy policies and procedures in place.
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Miller: We’ve probably seen a lot more than just their driver’s license or passport in our engagement with them.
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Miller: So that’s the kind of information that they were expecting companies to provide.
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Miller: Now, there were penalties also, which I think is where people start to get a little bit like, oh my gosh, do I have to do something here?
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Miller: And the penalties, when this originally was enacted, were up to $500 for each day that the violation continues.
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Miller: So for example, right, I mean, if you didn’t make the January 1st, 2025 date, although I will just insert this in here now, there was a pause based on some court cases.
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Miller: So don’t panic if you didn’t do it by January 1st, 2025, because a lot transpired at the end of 2024 through recently.
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Miller: So but that particular penalty was also going to be increased daily or annually based on sort of a inflation, really based on inflation.
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Miller: And so in addition to those $500 a day penalty, there was also, if a person willfully violated the BOI obligation, what is BOI, a beneficiary, what is BOI?
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Miller: Beneficial Ownership Information.
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Roddy: Okay, got it.
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Roddy: All right.
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Miller: Yeah, no problem.
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Miller: And so the person who willfully violates the BOI reporting requirements may also be subject to criminal penalties.
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Miller: So the $500 a day is what we call a civil penalty.
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Miller: And then the $10,000 was a criminal penalty up to two years in jail.
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Miller: So I don’t care if it’s a federal jail or any other kind of jail.
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Miller: No thank you.
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Miller: So that was something that was, I think, weighing heavily on individuals’ and companies’ minds, especially some of the smaller companies.
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Miller: I mean, they’re just out there running their business.
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Miller: And all of a sudden, FinCEN is, and the CTA is out in the news.
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Miller: And it’s like, what does this even mean?
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Miller: Because one of the documents that is a resource is this, oh, how many pages do we have here?
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Miller: For your reading pleasure, it’s on the FinCEN website, 59 pages of frequently asked questions.
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Miller: So clearly people were not completely, it wasn’t very clear, I think, out there in the ecosystem of what the obligations were for this beneficial ownership information requirement for filing.
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Roddy: Sure.
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Roddy: I’ll just share with you, Jill, just for you and for our listeners.
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Roddy: So I started my own company, a side business, back in 2019.
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Roddy: Before I joined the RSPA, I still keep it alive for book sales, professional speaking, things of that nature.
00:16:43.770 –> 00:16:54.230
Roddy: And when this came out, there was the element of, like you said, you saw the penalties, you saw prison, and everybody who knows me knows Jimmy DeWood wouldn’t do well in jail, for sure.
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Roddy: And so it was scary to be able to say, like, make sure you do this right, make sure you file it, because there were some pretty stiff penalties.
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Roddy: So I did file it, I did not use an attorney to do it, but I made sure that I got it done.
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Roddy: So keep going.
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Roddy: I didn’t mean to interrupt your story, but I can relate to the fear that went along with this.
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Miller: Yeah, I too believe that neither you nor I would do well in jail, which is why we both tend to follow the laws.
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Miller: Okay, so to get to the punchline here, so I’ve given you all this background of what it is and what is the CTA and what were the reasons and elements under which filing was required.
00:17:35.590 –> 00:18:07.230
Miller: Now the punchline is this, that on March 2nd of 2025, the Treasury Department announced not only would it not enforce any penalties or fines associated with the BOI reporting rule under the existing regulatory deadlines, it will not further enforce any penalty or fines, well, I’m on to my next page, against US citizens or domestic reporting companies or the beneficial owners after the forthcoming rule changes take effect either.
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Miller: So, the Treasury Department will be issuing proposed rulemaking that will narrow the scope of the rule.
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Miller: And what they said in their announcement was that it would only apply to foreign reporting companies, which means non-U.S.
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Miller: companies.
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Miller: So that’s really the last step.
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Miller: And they also have a quote in their announcement that said, the Treasury takes this step in the interest of supporting hardworking American taxpayers and small businesses and ensuring the rule is appropriately tailored to advance the public interest.
00:18:47.410 –> 00:19:09.070
Miller: And so, you know, this was a law that was enacted that also went through a series of court cases that tried to, that issued injunctions, you know, back in late December, were really close to the filing, you know, when the filings were going to really start to be put into place.
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Miller: And so it went through, and I have another resource, you know, you could sort of probably Google Corporate Transparency Act Timeline.
00:19:17.490 –> 00:19:34.070
Miller: And really, starting in December 3rd of 2024, there were one, two, three, I mean, and then a whole nother page, I mean, 15, 20 different start, stop, start, stop.
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Miller: And so at one point, our company was issuing client service announcements, trying to give people sort of an updated status, but they were coming so fast and furious, we thought, you know, we might be confusing the matter even more.
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Miller: But, you know, again, as of the 2nd of March, there is a pause.
00:19:55.030 –> 00:20:17.270
Miller: Companies are not going to be penalized for any late filings, but the rulemaking, which really is what instructs the US citizens and the lawyers, how and what specifically is going to be the requirement, if any, for US companies.
00:20:17.270 –> 00:20:36.390
Miller: Again, the Treasury Department said that they intend to narrow the scope to only focus on foreign entities, but based on the prior three months of this change and court involvement, we’ll see.
00:20:36.390 –> 00:20:51.730
Miller: I think that people are feeling comfortable, that things are going to not be further enacted, but like anything, we shall see.
00:20:52.610 –> 00:21:08.670
Roddy: So the short version is, and I know you don’t want to give legal advice to the exact companies here, but essentially, if you’re a US-owned, US-based business, this is just a whole bunch of, to quote Shakespeare, full of sound and fury signifying nothing, is really what it comes down to.
00:21:08.670 –> 00:21:21.990
Miller: Yeah, and I think it all comes down to this on March 2nd, the Treasury Department announces the suspension of enforcement of the CTA against US citizens and domestic reporting companies.
00:21:21.990 –> 00:21:28.730
Miller: And so I think it’s stay tuned, because there are supposed to be new regulations coming out.
00:21:28.730 –> 00:21:38.010
Miller: I would feel very comfortable once those new regulations, I mean, obviously, I’m not having any company do anything right now.
00:21:38.010 –> 00:21:38.250
Roddy: Yeah.
00:21:38.250 –> 00:22:03.330
Miller: But it will be nice to see regulations that specifically states only applies to entities that are foreign, meaning not foreign in terms of I’m a Michigan company and I registered to business in a foreign jurisdiction like Nevada or Florida, but rather outside of the US is what the foreign entities are.
00:22:03.670 –> 00:22:07.150
Miller: So, that’s the update on the Corporate Transparency Act.
00:22:07.150 –> 00:22:20.690
Miller: And I think that if for some reason, anything else ever came to light, the members can certainly reach out to me with respect to, should I be hiring this third-party company to help me?
00:22:20.690 –> 00:22:31.930
Miller: You try to save money when you can, but if it does seem very overly complicated and you want assistance, maybe some of those companies might be worthwhile, but it’s not an obligation.
00:22:32.750 –> 00:22:33.470
Roddy: Thank you for that update.
00:22:33.550 –> 00:22:35.190
Roddy: Can you also zoom out a little bit?
00:22:35.190 –> 00:22:39.350
Roddy: Third-party companies just reaching out to you to say, I’m going to help you with this.
00:22:39.350 –> 00:22:50.750
Roddy: It seems like people should be on guard for that, because you and I have worked together where people are reaching out now, hey, we can book your hotel room for RetailNOW at a discounted rate.
00:22:50.750 –> 00:22:55.090
Roddy: We’ll sell you a list for RetailNOW attendees at a discounted rate or like this.
00:22:55.090 –> 00:23:00.730
Roddy: Man, you click on this link and we’re going to go help you file FinCEN or whatever regulation.
00:23:00.790 –> 00:23:11.350
Roddy: It seems like they prey on timeliness and fear and it’s best to stay away from those unless it’s a trusted brand or unless the actual source is guiding that direction.
00:23:11.350 –> 00:23:12.950
Roddy: Am I stating that correctly?
00:23:13.390 –> 00:23:23.590
Miller: I think that’s right because some of those companies were still, after the March 2nd deadline or March 2nd announcement by the Treasury, still sending out those emails.
00:23:25.090 –> 00:23:38.230
Miller: Think about it too, one of the requirements is that you’re providing that third-party provider with a copy of your either driver’s license or your passport.
00:23:38.230 –> 00:23:59.990
Miller: Now you’re talking about your confidential information, and you want to make sure it’s a trusted resource, and there should be some agreement between you and that company that says that they will protect your personally identifiable information and in the event that for some reason based on something they do, it’s breached, well, then you should have some recourse.
00:24:01.070 –> 00:24:01.630
Roddy: Great.
00:24:01.630 –> 00:24:02.330
Roddy: Thank you for that.
00:24:03.130 –> 00:24:04.470
Roddy: Jill, we’re almost out of time.
00:24:04.470 –> 00:24:11.490
Roddy: I have to squeeze in a thank you to our sponsors who support the RSPA community and make this podcast and video series possible.
00:24:11.490 –> 00:24:17.890
Roddy: Our platinum sponsor is Blue Star, our gold sponsors are Cocard, Epson, Heartland, and ScanSource.
00:24:17.890 –> 00:24:23.510
Roddy: Then also a reminder for everybody knows, registration is open now for RetailNOW 2025.
00:24:23.510 –> 00:24:28.390
Roddy: For those who don’t know, it’s Retail IT Channel’s number one trade show education conference and networking event.
00:24:28.390 –> 00:24:33.770
Roddy: This year’s event is set for July 27-29 at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas.
00:24:33.770 –> 00:24:39.850
Roddy: You want to register now, VARs and Direct Independent Software Developers are eligible right now for an early bird discount.
00:24:39.850 –> 00:24:44.090
Roddy: Visit gorsp.org/retail now.
00:24:44.090 –> 00:24:46.970
Roddy: And Jill, you’re going to be speaking at RetailNOW.
00:24:46.970 –> 00:24:50.050
Roddy: I know you and I, we talked about, we’ll be on the main stage for a few minutes.
00:24:50.050 –> 00:24:55.970
Roddy: You’re going to have a breakout and I believe talking about whatever you want to call it surcharging, cash discounting, dual pricing.
00:24:55.970 –> 00:24:58.710
Roddy: Anything in the couple of minutes we have left, you can update our audience.
00:24:58.710 –> 00:25:03.470
Roddy: Any significant changes recently related to surcharging, cash discounting, etc.
00:25:04.390 –> 00:25:25.210
Miller: Yeah, I think that we’re still hearing from companies in various states that California, as an example, has this DRIP law pricing, which really talks about putting other fees on a receipt that may not necessarily have to do with cash discounting or dual pricing.
00:25:25.910 –> 00:25:36.270
Miller: You have to be really careful what you call an additional fee you might put on when we’re talking about, I’ll just give you some examples of people have talked to me about.
00:25:36.270 –> 00:26:02.730
Miller: One is that they’ve put service fee, but in that particular state, if you have the word service fee, it’s a direct violation of the law, or if you have something like service fee, some might consider that to be a tip, and then it should be going directly to the service person who’s ever bringing your and waiting on you at a food location, for example.
00:26:02.730 –> 00:26:15.110
Miller: Again, always just reach out to me if you’re doing something that’s a little bit unique or different, and I can walk you through what the published rules are.
00:26:15.110 –> 00:26:17.770
Miller: Visa is constantly putting information out.
00:26:17.770 –> 00:26:35.050
Miller: They have a frequently asked question document, and the laws are, I can help you interpret, not interpret maybe, but I can read through the state law and how other companies have interpreted that law in their particular state.
00:26:35.050 –> 00:26:40.990
Miller: So always happy to chat with anybody about a particular program you’re considering.
00:26:40.990 –> 00:26:41.190
Roddy: Right.
00:26:41.190 –> 00:26:47.030
Roddy: And that ties in with something that you’ve recommended in your prior 11 appearances on this podcast.
00:26:47.030 –> 00:26:52.270
Roddy: And speaking at RetailNOW and Inspire, don’t say, but George told me it was okay to do it this way.
00:26:52.270 –> 00:26:54.170
Roddy: I heard this other company was doing it this way.
00:26:54.170 –> 00:26:54.590
Roddy: Right.
00:26:54.590 –> 00:26:56.190
Roddy: You’ve got to go to the original source.
00:26:56.190 –> 00:27:00.210
Roddy: You’ve got to lean on somebody who really knows the specifics, the ins and outs.
00:27:00.210 –> 00:27:06.130
Roddy: So Jill, if RSPA members want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to do that?
00:27:06.130 –> 00:27:11.110
Miller: Best way is to send me an email, jmiller at bodminlaw.com.
00:27:12.250 –> 00:27:15.850
Miller: I’ve been able to get back to people very quickly and set up a Zoom meeting.
00:27:15.850 –> 00:27:17.450
Miller: I just love talking to our members.
00:27:17.450 –> 00:27:28.770
Miller: They’re so dynamic and they’re so interesting and they’re so thoughtful in how they treat their customers and thinking of ways to help them be successful.
00:27:28.770 –> 00:27:33.050
Miller: So I really love getting on Zoom with folks.
00:27:33.050 –> 00:27:35.830
Miller: But if you want to get in with me, I’m happy to do a phone call too.
00:27:35.830 –> 00:27:37.090
Miller: But send me an email first.
00:27:37.730 –> 00:27:39.830
Miller: My number is 734-930-2499.
00:27:43.210 –> 00:27:53.550
Miller: But if you send me an email, I can quickly respond and say, hey, what do these times look like for you instead of trying to fit in a call during the middle of the day?
00:27:53.550 –> 00:27:56.050
Miller: So please reach out to me.
00:27:56.050 –> 00:27:59.110
Miller: It would be my pleasure to meet more of our members.
00:27:59.110 –> 00:27:59.570
Roddy: Excellent.
00:27:59.570 –> 00:28:02.130
Roddy: Well, that does it for this episode of The Trusted Advisor.
00:28:02.130 –> 00:28:07.310
Roddy: If you enjoyed our discussion, be sure to subscribe to the RSPA YouTube channel and The Trusted Advisor podcast.
00:28:07.310 –> 00:28:09.390
Roddy: You never miss an episode.
00:28:09.390 –> 00:28:15.210
Roddy: Before we go, big thanks again to RSPA General Council, Jill Miller for sharing your wisdom with us today.
00:28:15.210 –> 00:28:23.350
Roddy: Thanks also to RSPA Marketing Director, Chris Arnold for his production work, Joseph McDade for our music, and last but not least, thanks so much to you for listening.
00:28:23.350 –> 00:28:30.250
Roddy: Our goal at the RSPA is to accelerate the success of our members in the retail technology ecosystem by providing knowledge and connections.
00:28:30.250 –> 00:28:34.010
Roddy: For more information, please visit our website at gorspa.org.
00:28:34.390 –> 00:28:37.730
Roddy: Thanks for listening and goodbye, everybody.
