In Episode 127 of “The Trusted Advisor,” RSPA CEO Jim Roddy talks leadership with channel expert Janet Schijns, the CEO and co-founder of JSG and an RSPA Board Advisor. Among the topics discussed are leading through change, key differences between risk taking at a large company vs. a small company, the state of women in the IT channel, and why VAR and ISV leaders need to avoid “echo chambers.”

“The Trusted Advisor,” powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association (RSPA), is an award-winning content series designed specifically for retail IT VARs and software providers. Our goal is to educate you on the topics of leadership, management, hiring, sales, and other small business best practices. For more insights, visit the RSPA blog at www.GoRSPA.org.  

Watch Episode 127 now:

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Full episode transcript via Apple Podcasts:

00:00:07.207 –> 00:00:15.067
Roddy: Welcome to another episode of The Trusted Advisor Podcast and Video Series, powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association.

00:00:15.067 –> 00:00:20.607
Roddy: Our goal on the pod is to accelerate the success of today’s and tomorrow’s leaders in the retail IT industry.

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Roddy: I’m Jim Roddy back with you again.

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Roddy: Thank you so much for joining us.

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Roddy: Now, as always, we talk with leaders about their leadership journeys and what they’ve learned along the way.

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Roddy: And for this episode, our guest is Janet Schijns.

00:00:31.647 –> 00:00:44.907
Roddy: She’s the CEO and co-founder of JSG, a go-to-market acceleration firm dedicated to achieving results in the ever-evolving partner ecosystem with a simple mission statement, save the channel.

00:00:44.907 –> 00:00:58.767
Roddy: Janet has worked with vendors, distributors, software providers, VARs and MSPs in a wide range of technology areas, including mobility, services, communications, data, cloud, IoT, and security.

00:00:58.767 –> 00:01:08.267
Roddy: She was formerly the EVP and CMO at Office Depot, Chief Channel Executive for Verizon Business, and she led the channel for Motorola Enterprise and Government.

00:01:08.267 –> 00:01:12.607
Roddy: Earlier this year, Janet was appointed as an RSPA Board Advisor.

00:01:12.607 –> 00:01:18.187
Roddy: Based on what you heard about her resume, you can see why we appointed her as a Board Advisor.

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Roddy: Janet, hello.

00:01:19.127 –> 00:01:23.067
Roddy: Welcome to the RSPA community and welcome to The Trusted Advisor.

00:01:23.067 –> 00:01:25.687
Schijns: Still excited to be here and thanks for all the engagement.

00:01:25.687 –> 00:01:27.507
Schijns: It’s such a great group.

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Roddy: Thank you.

00:01:27.867 –> 00:01:29.327
Roddy: It’s been great working with you.

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Roddy: You and I have crossed paths somewhat year after year, being in the channel for as long as we have, but it’s nice to be working shoulder to shoulder with you.

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Schijns: It sure is.

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Roddy: One thing that you’ve seen, and this is where I’m hoping we can start, is talking about leading through change in the IT channel.

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Roddy: Again, you’ve interacted with tons of solution providers over the years.

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Roddy: You’ve seen that change in our channel up close.

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Roddy: What advice do you give to VAR and MSP leaders today, navigating change in terms of technologies and business models and vendor changes, and how people work, and everything that goes into it?

00:02:04.927 –> 00:02:07.087
Roddy: What’s your advice to VAR and MSP leaders?

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Schijns: Well, deep breath is the first thing, because there is a lot of change you could spend all day long on the changes, and maybe never get to what you need to do that day in your business.

00:02:16.687 –> 00:02:27.407
Schijns: So the first thing I really encourage people to do, and it sounds basic, but it’s actually the hardest advice I give, is you have to redraft your business and your go-to-market plan.

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Schijns: You really have to step back.

00:02:29.167 –> 00:02:34.287
Schijns: You have to say, what is my business going to be this year, next year, three years, five years?

00:02:34.287 –> 00:02:44.527
Schijns: The five-year horizon is probably the hardest, because it’s hard to know, are the robots just going to be leading everything, and we’ll just be, I don’t know, on perpetual vacation, having robots work for us.

00:02:44.527 –> 00:02:46.427
Schijns: No one really knows.

00:02:46.427 –> 00:02:51.387
Schijns: But today, one in three years should be an exercise you can do.

00:02:51.387 –> 00:02:54.447
Schijns: This isn’t a static write something, put it in your drawer.

00:02:54.447 –> 00:02:57.987
Schijns: This is then change your entire operating model to do this.

00:02:58.547 –> 00:03:09.427
Schijns: We see a lot of people who instead just keep layering on, so, oh, digital marketing got an important, I’ll layer on a digital marketing intern or a digital marketer.

00:03:09.427 –> 00:03:12.887
Schijns: Oh, AI’s got an important, I’m going to layer on somebody.

00:03:12.887 –> 00:03:18.387
Schijns: But they’ve never went back and said, what about the jobs that need to be done in the rest of the business?

00:03:18.387 –> 00:03:22.607
Schijns: The example I’m going to give you is if you look at sales.

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Schijns: Five years ago, the average seller spent with a customer, 51 percent of that customer’s time was spent with a salesperson.

00:03:30.747 –> 00:03:34.847
Schijns: It’s now down to 14 percent of their time is spent with the salesperson.

00:03:34.847 –> 00:03:38.987
Schijns: So do you still need your sales team to do the same job?

00:03:38.987 –> 00:03:40.287
Schijns: The answer is no.

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Schijns: I would actually argue and I’ve had multiple people do this in their business plan and have it work, that you could cut your sales team in half, as long as you did the right stuff on the other side of where the customer is actually looking for solutions.

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Schijns: They’re online, they’re looking at webinars like this.

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Schijns: They’re asking their network on social media.

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Schijns: So this kind of seismic shift in go-to-market hasn’t translated to many partners’ business and go-to-market plans.

00:04:05.727 –> 00:04:11.247
Schijns: So that’s always my first thing is the way you embrace change, is you stop and you say, how does it impact me?

00:04:11.247 –> 00:04:13.767
Schijns: Some of the change means nothing.

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Schijns: It has nothing to do with me, nothing to do with my business.

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Schijns: It’s interesting, it’s exciting.

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Schijns: I like hearing keynotes about it, but it doesn’t have anything to do with my business.

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Schijns: The stuff that does, that’s the stuff I’ve got to redraft my plan, redraft my operating model, retrain my people or hire different people, and really get into it.

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Schijns: The minute you have a plan, all the breathless, heart-pounding, I don’t know what’s happening goes away, and you have something to execute on.

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Schijns: That’s my number one piece of advice on handling this change right now.

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Roddy: Got it.

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Roddy: Thank you for that.

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Roddy: I guess a question I want to ask on behalf of our audience.

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Roddy: How do they do that?

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Roddy: Because I’m not saying go through every plan.

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Roddy: How do they find the time to do it with all the daily activities?

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Roddy: What do you see the most successful folks do?

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Roddy: Do they have a regular time of year where every year, we’re going to talk about relooking at our plan?

00:05:05.707 –> 00:05:07.987
Roddy: Is it a quarterly thing or is it a variety?

00:05:07.987 –> 00:05:10.367
Roddy: How do folks actually execute on that principle?

00:05:10.367 –> 00:05:14.927
Schijns: Most of the partners we’ve worked with and done it well, have pulled the key members of their team.

00:05:14.927 –> 00:05:16.987
Schijns: By the way, this could be a five-person shop.

00:05:16.987 –> 00:05:22.387
Schijns: It doesn’t have to be a big, monolithic 500-person partner, although it works for them too.

00:05:23.287 –> 00:05:29.767
Schijns: They’ve pulled the people away from the business for a day or a day and a half, and they’ve done the work.

00:05:29.767 –> 00:05:32.047
Schijns: They’ve said, hey, we’re going to be out of the business.

00:05:32.047 –> 00:05:33.467
Schijns: We just had a client do this.

00:05:33.767 –> 00:05:35.127
Schijns: We call it market action planning.

00:05:35.127 –> 00:05:38.887
Schijns: We support this motion for firms that need that help.

00:05:39.547 –> 00:05:43.867
Schijns: We had a client that did it last week, the week of Thanksgiving, because it’s slow.

00:05:43.927 –> 00:05:49.067
Schijns: People aren’t, first of all, retailers are not making system changes, before Black Friday and Cyber Monday.

00:05:49.067 –> 00:05:50.287
Schijns: It’s not happening.

00:05:50.287 –> 00:05:52.527
Schijns: They were shut down weeks ago.

00:05:52.527 –> 00:05:57.167
Schijns: And the couple days leading up tend to be internal days for customers.

00:05:57.167 –> 00:05:59.247
Schijns: Customers tend to have vacation, et cetera.

00:05:59.247 –> 00:06:03.127
Schijns: So we pulled out on the Tuesday and Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

00:06:03.127 –> 00:06:04.527
Schijns: And that worked really well.

00:06:04.527 –> 00:06:07.127
Schijns: And so I would say there are always time you can pull out.

00:06:07.127 –> 00:06:10.067
Schijns: We’ve seen some partners do it on the weekend.

00:06:10.067 –> 00:06:12.547
Schijns: And, hey, none of us want to work a seven-day week.

00:06:13.347 –> 00:06:20.607
Schijns: But when it comes to once a year, doing your plan, right, it doesn’t kill you to work one weekend for the whole year.

00:06:20.607 –> 00:06:26.147
Schijns: And then quarterly, we recommend that you check how you’re performing against the plan.

00:06:26.147 –> 00:06:29.847
Schijns: So maybe a two-hour call, meaning go through the plan.

00:06:29.847 –> 00:06:30.847
Schijns: Did you execute?

00:06:30.847 –> 00:06:31.947
Schijns: Where are your gaps?

00:06:31.947 –> 00:06:34.107
Schijns: Where are you exceeding plan, right?

00:06:34.107 –> 00:06:36.707
Schijns: Where can you double down and kind of invest more?

00:06:36.707 –> 00:06:38.547
Schijns: And then where do you pull back?

00:06:38.547 –> 00:06:39.707
Schijns: Because it’s not working.

00:06:40.607 –> 00:06:44.987
Schijns: Just like once a quarter or two hours, just a heat check, as I like to call it.

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Schijns: And then the final thing, which sometimes people think is interesting, but I always think it’s important, is just a monthly spot check with all the people that work for you or with you.

00:06:54.367 –> 00:07:05.287
Schijns: And it can be as simple as an email that says, hey, let’s send a happy face, sad face, moderate face.

00:07:05.287 –> 00:07:07.447
Schijns: Click the one you feel it is on Teams.

00:07:07.447 –> 00:07:09.207
Schijns: It doesn’t have to be complicated.

00:07:10.107 –> 00:07:20.007
Schijns: Just check in with the people, because the reality is, your employee experience is actually more meaningful to your growth than your customer experience.

00:07:20.007 –> 00:07:24.927
Schijns: Because if your employee experience is great, your employees are happy, they’ll make the customer experience good.

00:07:24.927 –> 00:07:28.727
Schijns: So that’s typically how we find people making time for it.

00:07:28.727 –> 00:07:29.467
Roddy: Interesting.

00:07:29.467 –> 00:07:29.727
Roddy: Got it.

00:07:29.727 –> 00:07:41.427
Roddy: And it seems like it’s super important to not just have that plan, but you’re saying the follow-through as well, because the artist pages went through our five-year planning, and following the advice that you have.

00:07:41.427 –> 00:07:52.227
Roddy: But then there’s, okay, what specifically needs to be done, and who’s going to do it, and make sure we have that on our weekly agenda, where we make sure it’s not something that was forgotten about, or you wake up and you have to scramble.

00:07:52.227 –> 00:07:52.427
Schijns: Right.

00:07:52.427 –> 00:07:59.727
Schijns: And about how good you are, as I’ve talked with, I sit on boards for big partners in the industry.

00:07:59.727 –> 00:08:06.447
Schijns: And no matter how good you are, it’s like the quarterback on the winning Super Bowl team, he still is a coach, right?

00:08:06.447 –> 00:08:10.127
Schijns: And so you still have to look at it and say, what more could I do?

00:08:10.127 –> 00:08:11.987
Schijns: How could I further accelerate my lead?

00:08:11.987 –> 00:08:23.087
Schijns: So the hardest part, of course, is when your business is declining, to keep that focus on the change as opposed to the survival.

00:08:23.087 –> 00:08:23.567
Schijns: Right.

00:08:23.567 –> 00:08:27.027
Schijns: It’s a very hard thing to do, but it is the key to surviving.

00:08:27.027 –> 00:08:27.307
Roddy: Yeah.

00:08:27.307 –> 00:08:29.327
Roddy: Maslow’s hierarchy of business needs, right?

00:08:32.647 –> 00:08:36.347
Schijns: We’re going to run out of cash, and then somebody says, you should update your business plan.

00:08:36.387 –> 00:08:37.727
Schijns: That’s a tough feeling, right?

00:08:37.727 –> 00:08:39.867
Schijns: You’re like, are you kidding?

00:08:39.867 –> 00:08:44.307
Schijns: But the reality is, the reason your business is failing is because your business.

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Roddy: Got it.

00:08:46.187 –> 00:08:46.647
Roddy: So thank you.

00:08:46.647 –> 00:08:51.207
Roddy: So one thing that stands out from your bio that I shared, you’ve alluded to it a couple of times.

00:08:51.207 –> 00:08:53.827
Roddy: You’ve held leadership roles with several large companies.

00:08:53.867 –> 00:08:55.347
Roddy: You have insight into those large orgs.

00:08:55.347 –> 00:08:57.847
Roddy: Like we mentioned Office Depot, Verizon, Motorola.

00:08:57.847 –> 00:09:00.587
Roddy: You work with a lot of large solution providers as well.

00:09:00.587 –> 00:09:03.267
Roddy: But today, you lead your own small company.

00:09:03.267 –> 00:09:13.727
Roddy: I’m curious, from you living that, what do you see the biggest differences between being one of the leaders of a large company compared with now leading your own company?

00:09:13.727 –> 00:09:15.507
Roddy: What are your top of my thoughts on that?

00:09:15.507 –> 00:09:19.687
Schijns: Well, first, I would say that being in leadership in corporate America is not for the saint of heart.

00:09:22.127 –> 00:09:28.407
Schijns: You age about five years for every one year in a big company, especially at Verizon, would love to all my friends at Verizon.

00:09:28.407 –> 00:09:30.907
Schijns: They would laugh and agree.

00:09:31.107 –> 00:09:31.627
Schijns: It’s a heavy.

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Roddy: Wait, can I ask, why is that?

00:09:33.187 –> 00:09:34.247
Roddy: Why do you say that?

00:09:34.247 –> 00:09:43.367
Schijns: Well, you’re looking at $180 billion company, you’re looking at shareholders that every day for pension funds and others wake up and look at your stock price.

00:09:43.487 –> 00:09:48.267
Schijns: So you’re always chasing that shareholder return, which is your job.

00:09:49.107 –> 00:09:54.827
Schijns: I sit on the board of a publicly traded company and I sit on the board of a privately traded company and it’s your job there too.

00:09:54.827 –> 00:09:58.547
Schijns: It’s investor return is one of your biggest jobs.

00:09:58.547 –> 00:10:04.027
Schijns: And so when you’re in corporate, you can see what needs to be done.

00:10:04.027 –> 00:10:10.047
Schijns: If you’re a good leader and I hope that people perceive me as one, you can see what needs to be done.

00:10:10.047 –> 00:10:14.807
Schijns: Getting it through the sausage factory that is the big corporation is the problem.

00:10:14.807 –> 00:10:16.547
Schijns: We’ve never done it that way before.

00:10:16.547 –> 00:10:18.027
Schijns: We don’t do things like that here.

00:10:18.187 –> 00:10:20.607
Schijns: That’s not how things work here.

00:10:20.607 –> 00:10:23.647
Schijns: Let’s talk about it again next month.

00:10:23.647 –> 00:10:28.167
Schijns: Then you get to watch a smaller, more nimble competitor do it.

00:10:28.167 –> 00:10:29.627
Schijns: You never got there.

00:10:29.627 –> 00:10:37.907
Schijns: Then you wake up and you say, how did Verizon, I’m going to use them as my alumni example, how did Verizon not create Facebook?

00:10:37.907 –> 00:10:40.707
Schijns: They had the connections, they had the people, they had the technology.

00:10:40.707 –> 00:10:42.147
Schijns: How did they not create Facebook?

00:10:42.147 –> 00:10:44.447
Schijns: You know they didn’t create Facebook because they had the idea.

00:10:45.247 –> 00:10:51.007
Schijns: They didn’t execute because in a big company, it’s the chorus of no’s.

00:10:51.007 –> 00:11:03.807
Schijns: So that’s kind of the big learning I came away from corporate with was, one, while it was cool to be an entrepreneur, because I was an entrepreneur before I started that corporate journey and sold my company to Motorola.

00:11:04.867 –> 00:11:19.767
Schijns: While it was cool to be an entrepreneur in a corporation because you could break some glass and amazing leaders like Lowell McAdam, who was our CEO at Verizon, would say to me, don’t let us break you, you break us, you break us.

00:11:19.767 –> 00:11:22.087
Schijns: I don’t want you to fall into the corporate.

00:11:23.327 –> 00:11:30.247
Schijns: It’s just hard to move that big of a machine on a day-to-day basis without getting, frankly, a little frustrated.

00:11:30.247 –> 00:11:34.867
Schijns: I did okay, but it’s a full and a half-time job.

00:11:34.867 –> 00:11:51.347
Schijns: When you contrast that with having your own business, there’s a pressure of having your own business, which is that in that corporate America job, you get that paycheck, you get that bonus, you get that stock, you are a shareholder, so you feel pretty good about shareholder return.

00:11:51.347 –> 00:11:57.867
Schijns: In your own company, every buck stops with you, every decision stops with you, every innovation stops with you.

00:11:57.867 –> 00:12:00.627
Schijns: That’s where I find the big difference.

00:12:00.627 –> 00:12:08.967
Schijns: The big difference is you can have a great idea and get everybody to execute on it, but if you have too many great ideas, you’re going to exhaust your team as an entrepreneur, right?

00:12:08.967 –> 00:12:15.267
Schijns: And you don’t have the 180,000 strong people to just pull someone in.

00:12:15.267 –> 00:12:18.267
Schijns: And I always tell this story because I think it’s meaningful.

00:12:18.267 –> 00:12:22.307
Schijns: As at Verizon, I started the IoT practice at Verizon, actually.

00:12:22.307 –> 00:12:25.747
Schijns: So now, many years later, it’s all the rage.

00:12:25.747 –> 00:12:37.847
Schijns: And I remember sitting in a meeting room with our CFO and COO and a few other people and saying, I think it’s going to take about 181 people, $50 million in investment.

00:12:37.847 –> 00:12:39.127
Schijns: This is how I would set it up.

00:12:39.127 –> 00:12:40.127
Schijns: Boom.

00:12:40.127 –> 00:12:46.367
Schijns: Walking out of the meeting with permission to hire 181 people or move them, right?

00:12:46.367 –> 00:12:51.947
Schijns: And spend $50 million on certifications and testing, et cetera, et cetera, at the blink of a hat.

00:12:53.367 –> 00:12:55.267
Schijns: You can’t do that as an entrepreneur.

00:12:55.267 –> 00:12:59.447
Schijns: You could have that idea as an entrepreneur, but you’re going to have to go get funding and investors.

00:12:59.527 –> 00:13:08.167
Schijns: And so the buck truly stops the kind of with you, when you have to decide if you want to take your own personal money that’s in the business and make that investment.

00:13:08.167 –> 00:13:12.227
Schijns: Now, the fun side of that is that you do get to do what you want to do.

00:13:12.227 –> 00:13:19.127
Schijns: So when I want to, and I do a lot of it, donate my time to things like being a board advisor or RSPA or to small partners.

00:13:19.127 –> 00:13:22.547
Schijns: I hold small partner calls generally once or twice a month.

00:13:22.547 –> 00:13:23.907
Schijns: Come on, ask questions.

00:13:23.907 –> 00:13:25.207
Schijns: No charge, no fee.

00:13:25.207 –> 00:13:26.227
Schijns: Right.

00:13:26.227 –> 00:13:27.367
Schijns: I can do those things.

00:13:27.367 –> 00:13:32.407
Schijns: If you’re in a big company, the big company is saying, that does not drop to the profit line.

00:13:32.407 –> 00:13:33.467
Schijns: Stop that.

00:13:33.467 –> 00:13:34.047
Schijns: Just stop that.

00:13:34.047 –> 00:13:35.727
Schijns: You need to charge for that.

00:13:35.727 –> 00:13:37.987
Schijns: So that’s the second thing.

00:13:37.987 –> 00:13:46.647
Schijns: The third thing which I think is probably the most meaningful, is the smaller company gives you ability to take a chance on somebody.

00:13:46.647 –> 00:13:56.647
Schijns: So in corporate America, there’s very firm kind of algorithms and HR rules and everything that say, this is who you can or can’t hire.

00:13:56.647 –> 00:14:06.167
Schijns: There’s a lot of various speeds into that, but I can remember wanting to hire someone who, by the way, now have a JSG as our marketing lead.

00:14:06.667 –> 00:14:11.267
Schijns: Well, she wouldn’t move to Basking Ridge, so she can’t get hired.

00:14:11.267 –> 00:14:15.787
Schijns: She’s missing the second advanced degree we wanted, so she can’t get hired.

00:14:17.087 –> 00:14:30.947
Schijns: You never got to take a chance on someone that you knew could do a really different, better job, but they didn’t slot in to the corporate view of what that job required.

00:14:30.947 –> 00:14:42.407
Schijns: They were a risk, and so you were allowed to hire them, or you weren’t going to put the sweat equity in to fight that fight, all the way up the thing, and then what if it doesn’t work?

00:14:42.407 –> 00:14:43.907
Schijns: As an entrepreneur, you can take a risk.

00:14:44.527 –> 00:14:57.667
Schijns: You can bring in the kids you met, and true story, you can bring in the kids you met because you were so impressed with how he was handling a customer complaint at a retail store, and say, you seem really good at this.

00:14:57.667 –> 00:14:58.927
Schijns: What are you doing long term?

00:14:58.927 –> 00:15:08.987
Schijns: Oh, you just graduated college, or why did you come in with us, and we’re going to teach you this, because you saw something in him, who’s now our marketing director and is a phenom, right?

00:15:08.987 –> 00:15:10.847
Schijns: But you see something in the person.

00:15:10.847 –> 00:15:12.687
Schijns: In corporate, they would never let you do that.

00:15:12.747 –> 00:15:16.527
Schijns: You’re going to hire some guy who delivers cheesesteaks for Steve’s Cheesesteaks.

00:15:16.527 –> 00:15:18.787
Schijns: Why would you do that?

00:15:18.787 –> 00:15:26.287
Schijns: There’s a thousand people applying for this job, but don’t hire a marketing person from Steve’s Cheesesteaks.

00:15:26.287 –> 00:15:34.887
Schijns: But you could see it as a leader, you can see the talent, the raw talent, and as an entrepreneur, you can invest in that, bring those people in.

00:15:34.887 –> 00:15:35.487
Roddy: Interesting.

00:15:35.487 –> 00:15:36.067
Roddy: I love that.

00:15:36.067 –> 00:15:37.407
Roddy: There’s a bunch of directors I can go.

00:15:37.407 –> 00:16:02.627
Roddy: The one that I’ll ask this follow-up is, when folks have been an entrepreneur and then they become a business leader, and they’ve been doing it for years, I see them sometimes taking way fewer chances, and I don’t want to say taking on that corporate mindset, but almost like I’m just going to go with the flow and let this thing roll, and they lose some of that entrepreneurial or risk-taking drive that’s behind, they end up playing it safe.

00:16:02.627 –> 00:16:04.787
Roddy: Understandably, they have a lot of employees who are counting on them.

00:16:04.787 –> 00:16:06.087
Roddy: They have their family that’s counting on them.

00:16:06.087 –> 00:16:09.127
Roddy: They’ve been doing it for years, and it’s hard to change that.

00:16:09.527 –> 00:16:15.687
Roddy: What do you say to folks who their initial reaction is like, hey, Janet, my business has been very successful.

00:16:15.687 –> 00:16:18.967
Roddy: I don’t think I should be making big changes at this point.

00:16:19.087 –> 00:16:21.227
Roddy: What do you say to counter that?

00:16:21.467 –> 00:16:27.727
Roddy: Not that they have to totally revamp their business necessarily, but to get that entrepreneurial edge back.

00:16:28.067 –> 00:16:29.307
Roddy: What do you say to that?

00:16:29.307 –> 00:16:32.387
Schijns: I would start with the best always get better.

00:16:32.387 –> 00:16:36.407
Schijns: This is a saying I use all the time with people, the best always get better.

00:16:36.927 –> 00:16:40.207
Schijns: If you’re truly the best, you’re always looking to get better.

00:16:40.207 –> 00:16:43.867
Schijns: I mean, look, you can have any kind of opinion on Elon Musk, right?

00:16:43.867 –> 00:16:46.367
Schijns: You can hate him, you can love him, right?

00:16:46.367 –> 00:16:53.167
Schijns: But you can’t deny the fact that he’s always looking to find the next innovation, always looking to challenge things, right?

00:16:53.167 –> 00:16:54.887
Schijns: You can’t deny it.

00:16:54.887 –> 00:16:57.047
Schijns: And so that is that spirit.

00:16:57.047 –> 00:17:00.487
Schijns: That’s that entrepreneurial spirit in a big company.

00:17:00.487 –> 00:17:07.467
Schijns: And so what tends to happen, what I find, is you start to surround yourself with the echo chamber.

00:17:07.467 –> 00:17:10.287
Schijns: And in big companies, there’s a pecking order, right?

00:17:10.287 –> 00:17:16.987
Schijns: And if the VP walks into the room, everybody who’s not a VP, you know, kind of, excuse me for saying it, sucks up.

00:17:16.987 –> 00:17:21.127
Schijns: I’m from Jersey originally, so, you know, our language is a little rough.

00:17:21.607 –> 00:17:28.847
Schijns: And they will swear that an idea is a good one just because of the level it came from.

00:17:28.847 –> 00:17:32.587
Schijns: In an entrepreneurial world, typically you look at the idea based on its merit.

00:17:33.427 –> 00:17:41.547
Schijns: And so what happens, I think, to my friends who have went into corporate after being an entrepreneur, is they begin to fall for their own, you know what?

00:17:41.547 –> 00:17:42.747
Schijns: They start to buy their own lies.

00:17:42.747 –> 00:17:57.087
Schijns: They start to buy their own half-truths, you know, maybe I won’t be as mean as to say lies, but they start to get comfortable with inertia because everybody surrounding them is no longer pushing them, no longer driving them, they’re applauding them.

00:17:57.087 –> 00:18:09.027
Schijns: But if you watch that journey, if you watch a person go into corporate America, and typically will go in, let’s say the VP or director level, if you watch in five years and they haven’t gotten up to SVP, EVP, right?

00:18:09.027 –> 00:18:11.587
Schijns: I’m very proud of the fact that I climbed, right?

00:18:11.587 –> 00:18:17.747
Schijns: They haven’t climbed, then they lost their entrepreneurial spirit, because they were hired for the spirit.

00:18:17.747 –> 00:18:19.487
Schijns: Like never make a mistake about it.

00:18:19.487 –> 00:18:25.447
Schijns: The company knew they wanted you to break some glass, and then you start laying back.

00:18:25.587 –> 00:18:33.327
Schijns: And that’s, you may stay forever, but you’ll never get ahead, you won’t get a new job, they won’t lattice you into another experience.

00:18:33.327 –> 00:18:35.507
Schijns: It may even be not a promotion, right?

00:18:35.507 –> 00:18:43.587
Schijns: It may just be a lateral move somewhere else in the org, so you can learn more, so they can get you ready for a promotion, but they don’t get those opportunities.

00:18:43.587 –> 00:18:46.687
Schijns: You also see them out in 18 to 24 months.

00:18:46.687 –> 00:18:47.387
Schijns: They’re serial.

00:18:47.387 –> 00:18:55.227
Schijns: They start to go in somewhere, they’re there 18 or 24 months, or in the next place 18 or 24 months, or in the next place a year, or the next place six months, then two years.

00:18:55.227 –> 00:19:00.547
Schijns: You see this hopping happen, and the person never stays anywhere more than a couple of years.

00:19:00.547 –> 00:19:04.927
Schijns: And these are just red flags for me that that entrepreneur is struggling in the corporate environment.

00:19:04.927 –> 00:19:06.727
Schijns: They’re not making an impact.

00:19:06.727 –> 00:19:17.947
Schijns: So what I did when I got to Motorola, I worked for Greg Brown, this is the CEO, still the CEO of Motorola Paris Government, and a brilliant man.

00:19:17.947 –> 00:19:21.987
Schijns: And he told me, don’t surround yourself with the echo chamber.

00:19:21.987 –> 00:19:28.567
Schijns: It was probably the best piece of advice, because I said to him, what advice do you have for me coming in as an entrepreneur into a company?

00:19:28.567 –> 00:19:30.907
Schijns: And he said, don’t surround yourself with the echo chamber.

00:19:30.907 –> 00:19:34.027
Schijns: Find some disruptive voices.

00:19:34.027 –> 00:19:36.587
Schijns: And I have worked with a gentleman, Josh Klein.

00:19:36.587 –> 00:19:41.727
Schijns: He’s probably one of the best speakers in the world, but also one of the best coaches in the world.

00:19:41.727 –> 00:19:50.507
Schijns: He’s the gentleman who actually taught crows how to put a quarter in the feed machine in Central Park in New York to feed themselves.

00:19:50.847 –> 00:19:52.947
Schijns: He’s that kind of, because you would go, you can’t do it.

00:19:52.947 –> 00:19:54.807
Schijns: At this, that’s not going to work.

00:19:54.807 –> 00:19:56.147
Schijns: And yet it did.

00:19:56.147 –> 00:19:56.987
Schijns: And he’s a hacker.

00:19:56.987 –> 00:19:57.787
Schijns: He’s a growth hacker.

00:19:57.787 –> 00:19:59.307
Schijns: He was actually a hacker, hacker.

00:19:59.307 –> 00:20:00.767
Schijns: I almost went to jail for that.

00:20:00.767 –> 00:20:05.727
Schijns: And then he became a growth hacker, and he’s a challenger, like he’s just a challenger.

00:20:05.727 –> 00:20:11.527
Schijns: And I would have him in when my team and I did our annual planning exercise one year, I had him in.

00:20:11.527 –> 00:20:15.147
Schijns: And everybody got up in the corporate moray, and we’re going to present this plan.

00:20:15.147 –> 00:20:17.847
Schijns: Everybody’s going to give their polite little applause.

00:20:17.847 –> 00:20:23.767
Schijns: We’re going to file a plan because it hits our budget, and you know, good for us, we’ll have dinner and go home.

00:20:23.767 –> 00:20:26.407
Schijns: And he was like, that plan sucks.

00:20:26.407 –> 00:20:29.607
Schijns: Like, they presented the thing, he was like, that plan sucks.

00:20:29.607 –> 00:20:33.027
Schijns: And everybody in the room just kind of went, oof.

00:20:33.027 –> 00:20:35.467
Schijns: And then it was like, you know, it kind of does.

00:20:35.467 –> 00:20:40.967
Schijns: Like everybody started having that moment where they were like, you know, it really isn’t what we wanted to do.

00:20:40.967 –> 00:20:42.687
Schijns: Well, what did you want to do?

00:20:42.687 –> 00:20:43.007
Schijns: Right.

00:20:43.007 –> 00:20:45.587
Schijns: And we started talking about what would you do?

00:20:45.587 –> 00:20:54.907
Schijns: And I always use this example, one of the issues we had in the channel at Verizon was our commissions were horrifically inaccurate for our partners.

00:20:54.907 –> 00:20:57.867
Schijns: And one of our directors said, well, why don’t we just trust the partner?

00:20:57.867 –> 00:21:00.907
Schijns: Whenever they tell us we owe them, we pay them.

00:21:00.907 –> 00:21:04.787
Schijns: Like every year we put a $20 million, we’re going to fix the commission system plug-in.

00:21:04.787 –> 00:21:06.367
Schijns: Every year IT cuts it.

00:21:06.367 –> 00:21:10.127
Schijns: Every year the partners told them, what if we just said, and we reserve the right to audit you.

00:21:10.127 –> 00:21:11.187
Roddy: Yeah.

00:21:11.187 –> 00:21:14.207
Schijns: And oh my gosh, it was like a sea change.

00:21:14.207 –> 00:21:16.907
Schijns: When we announced that the partners felt trusted and loved.

00:21:17.147 –> 00:21:19.627
Schijns: That is a very entrepreneurial thing to do.

00:21:19.627 –> 00:21:21.107
Schijns: Yeah.

00:21:21.107 –> 00:21:27.727
Schijns: We saved money, we didn’t need systems changes, and Josh was a big part of pushing the team out of the comfort zone.

00:21:27.727 –> 00:21:34.487
Schijns: I also used a woman and she does an amazing job for anybody who’s looking for leadership coaching, Melanie Spring.

00:21:34.487 –> 00:21:38.027
Schijns: She’s also super different.

00:21:39.567 –> 00:21:48.967
Schijns: She’s all about your best personal self, she’s all about reflection and getting in touch with the part of you that’s vulnerable.

00:21:50.007 –> 00:22:01.487
Schijns: I surrounded myself with people like that in my echo chamber, so that I didn’t just have everybody going, yes, you’re so smart, yes, you’re so smart, yes, you’re fabulous.

00:22:02.547 –> 00:22:04.607
Schijns: We did very well.

00:22:05.987 –> 00:22:10.087
Schijns: As a result of that, obviously, my career did very well also.

00:22:10.087 –> 00:22:12.427
Schijns: My coaching to entrepreneurs is always two things.

00:22:12.427 –> 00:22:16.967
Schijns: It’s just one, don’t start believing your own PR, right?

00:22:16.967 –> 00:22:26.227
Schijns: Get that echo chamber that’s going to challenge you, get that personal board of directors who’s going to push at you and say, come on, you know that’s not good.

00:22:26.227 –> 00:22:32.867
Schijns: And then the second thing is take the time to stand back and say, if it was my money, would I do it?

00:22:32.867 –> 00:22:39.547
Schijns: And we instituted something when I was at Office Depot where we called it badge on the table.

00:22:39.547 –> 00:22:45.447
Schijns: So would you put your badge on the table for this and agree you’re going to lose your job if it doesn’t work?

00:22:46.927 –> 00:22:47.927
Schijns: Yes or no?

00:22:47.927 –> 00:22:48.627
Roddy: Yeah.

00:22:48.627 –> 00:22:48.967
Schijns: Right.

00:22:48.967 –> 00:22:53.207
Schijns: And oh, by the way, that same badge though goes on the promotable list if it does work.

00:22:53.207 –> 00:22:53.787
Roddy: Yeah.

00:22:53.787 –> 00:22:56.107
Schijns: Willing to put your badge on the table, yes or no?

00:22:56.107 –> 00:23:11.587
Schijns: And you’d be surprised how many times somebody came in convinced that they needed a hundred million dollars and a thousand people, and then you go back on the table and they’re like, yeah, no, because an entrepreneur puts their badge on the table every day.

00:23:11.587 –> 00:23:17.727
Roddy: I was going to say, the VARs and ISVs, they don’t have badges, but every single day they’re putting it on the table every day.

00:23:17.727 –> 00:23:30.607
Schijns: If they make a bad move, they go out of business, they lose money, their family has to mortgage a house, they can’t afford to send their kid to school, whatever their thing might be, and in corporate, it’s just a little too easy.

00:23:30.807 –> 00:23:34.787
Schijns: You have a $150 million budget, it’s a little too easy to spend $150 million.

00:23:35.327 –> 00:23:57.927
Roddy: Yeah, now that’s helpful talking about the insulation, and one book I’ve read, it’s called Disrupt You by Jay Samit, and it’s really good where it took, yeah, it talks about like either someone from the outside is gonna disrupt you, or you might as well disrupt yourself, but that’s why I like where our members, get together, talk with other members, because they’re gonna give you the no BS answer, and tell you what’s worked for them, and what hasn’t worked.

00:23:57.927 –> 00:23:59.447
Schijns: And they’re gonna challenge you, right?

00:23:59.507 –> 00:24:03.307
Schijns: To say, what, you know, like, why are you doing that?

00:24:03.307 –> 00:24:05.167
Schijns: Why do you have five people doing that?

00:24:05.167 –> 00:24:07.787
Schijns: I was on with a partner the other day.

00:24:07.787 –> 00:24:10.527
Schijns: They’re at 30 million, which is a good size partner, right?

00:24:11.007 –> 00:24:16.807
Schijns: But they’re struggling with how they’re gonna get to the next level, debt levels are high, burn rate is high.

00:24:16.807 –> 00:24:18.967
Schijns: Every time they turn around, they’re spending more money.

00:24:18.967 –> 00:24:26.187
Schijns: And when you started looking at it, it was because they had taken that peanut butter approach, like spread peanut butter on white bread, and it all breaks up, right?

00:24:26.187 –> 00:24:30.567
Schijns: They were trying to spread it, as opposed to saying, this is our one big bet.

00:24:30.567 –> 00:24:31.127
Schijns: Yes.

00:24:31.127 –> 00:24:31.467
Roddy: Yeah.

00:24:31.467 –> 00:24:31.767
Roddy: Yes.

00:24:31.907 –> 00:24:33.787
Roddy: I’ve got to double down on the change.

00:24:33.787 –> 00:24:34.827
Schijns: Right.

00:24:34.827 –> 00:24:43.567
Roddy: Before we take a commercial break, before I dive more into your personal journey, I want to get your perspective on a broader topic in the channel.

00:24:43.567 –> 00:24:49.547
Roddy: One thing we didn’t mention in your bio is you’ve co-founded two organizations to help women in the tech industry.

00:24:49.547 –> 00:24:52.747
Roddy: I want to talk about women and leadership in the channel.

00:24:52.747 –> 00:24:59.587
Roddy: My perspective, what I’ve seen, like I see several women in leadership positions at large vendor organizations.

00:24:59.587 –> 00:25:07.247
Roddy: I see some women in VAR leadership positions more than 10 to 15 years ago, but certainly not like an overwhelming number.

00:25:07.247 –> 00:25:14.327
Roddy: But from a software provider standpoint, like almost zero, like close to zero female leaders.

00:25:14.327 –> 00:25:18.907
Roddy: Again, that’s what I’m seeing in terms of numbers and volume.

00:25:18.907 –> 00:25:23.147
Roddy: What is your take on the state of women in the IT channel?

00:25:23.407 –> 00:25:28.687
Roddy: Improving, static, regressing, not improving enough, improving in leaps and bounds.

00:25:29.307 –> 00:25:30.867
Roddy: I want to hear your perspective on it.

00:25:30.867 –> 00:25:32.627
Schijns: Regressing.

00:25:32.627 –> 00:25:33.767
Schijns: It’s actually regressing.

00:25:34.347 –> 00:25:38.887
Schijns: That trend has been happening since right around the start of COVID.

00:25:38.887 –> 00:25:42.747
Schijns: The reason for that was there was a lot of demands on females during COVID.

00:25:42.787 –> 00:25:46.227
Schijns: Kids were home, elderly parents, right?

00:25:46.227 –> 00:25:50.967
Schijns: There was just a lot of demands on women, and those tasks tend to fall to women.

00:25:50.967 –> 00:25:55.047
Schijns: Women definitely benefited from remote work without a doubt.

00:25:55.047 –> 00:26:06.447
Schijns: But then as things started to become more hybrid and returned to office and travel came back, we saw a fair amount of women opt out and say this is just not worth it.

00:26:06.447 –> 00:26:10.707
Schijns: But we also saw, and it’s interesting, and I can’t name the what.

00:26:11.147 –> 00:26:14.847
Schijns: I can just name the what’s happening, right?

00:26:14.847 –> 00:26:22.267
Schijns: We started to see almost a backlash from the MeToo movement, from all of the movements that were supporting women.

00:26:22.267 –> 00:26:27.427
Schijns: We started to see a backlash, and some of it was deserved, and some of it wasn’t, right?

00:26:27.427 –> 00:26:29.207
Schijns: It’s like any other backlash, right?

00:26:29.407 –> 00:26:31.827
Schijns: It hurts the good and the bad.

00:26:31.827 –> 00:26:34.107
Schijns: Were there cases where things were pushed too far?

00:26:34.107 –> 00:26:38.047
Schijns: I’m sure there were, but that doesn’t mean that everyone should get wrapped up.

00:26:38.127 –> 00:26:51.867
Schijns: And so, interestingly, the Lean In Org, which is the one that Sandler started from Facebook, they actually saw men unwilling to mentor or manage women.

00:26:51.867 –> 00:26:56.227
Schijns: The rate of that increase every year in the last couple of years.

00:26:56.227 –> 00:27:05.987
Schijns: Some of that, I think, probably was started by the Me Too, people being afraid to mentor or be one-on-one with women, which is horrible.

00:27:05.987 –> 00:27:07.147
Schijns: That shouldn’t be the case.

00:27:08.147 –> 00:27:12.227
Schijns: But two, again, like I said, I don’t know why it’s happening.

00:27:12.227 –> 00:27:14.047
Schijns: They just know what’s happening.

00:27:14.047 –> 00:27:31.827
Schijns: As the layoffs started, women tend to be more likely to be in marketing, more likely to be in programs, more likely to be in HR, in legal, in finance, in areas where the big cuts we’ve seen in the tech industry have come.

00:27:31.827 –> 00:27:34.347
Schijns: The tech industry led the layoffs.

00:27:34.347 –> 00:27:36.267
Schijns: They were first to the layoff game.

00:27:37.047 –> 00:27:42.227
Schijns: Early on, in 22, and heavy in 23 and 24.

00:27:42.227 –> 00:27:45.287
Schijns: As we all know, we’ve had many friends impacted.

00:27:45.287 –> 00:27:49.887
Schijns: And women seem to get hit harder because they were in those roles that got hit.

00:27:49.887 –> 00:27:52.067
Schijns: Marketing got hit hard.

00:27:52.067 –> 00:27:55.507
Schijns: Programs, channel programs got hit hard.

00:27:55.507 –> 00:28:03.167
Schijns: Again, finance, HR, legal, they got hit hard because they weren’t sellers, they weren’t product people, they weren’t software people to your earlier point.

00:28:03.167 –> 00:28:12.287
Schijns: So there weren’t enough women already, and then women got hit pretty hard in the layoffs, making it kind of a double impact.

00:28:12.287 –> 00:28:24.687
Schijns: So what I’m trying to do with my two not-for-profits, one is towards helping women get back on track in their careers, tech world’s half, really helping people make a career plan.

00:28:24.687 –> 00:28:35.867
Schijns: Think about where you’re going, and we support that through our Advancing Leadership Network, which has courses and curriculum and mentors and everything to help women get to the leadership level.

00:28:35.867 –> 00:28:42.967
Schijns: The other one, WomWon, one I do with my family actually, and that we donate all profits of JSG to.

00:28:42.967 –> 00:28:47.407
Schijns: We don’t take any of the profits from JSG, they all go into the second foundation.

00:28:47.407 –> 00:28:59.427
Schijns: WomWon is really focused on women that are younger in their career and financial independence, and teaching women how their career creates that financial independence and how to get to a point where you’re financially independent.

00:28:59.427 –> 00:29:03.047
Schijns: Now, you may say as a listener, Jim, you may be thinking, why is financial independence?

00:29:03.047 –> 00:29:04.267
Schijns: It’s so important.

00:29:04.267 –> 00:29:08.867
Schijns: Women that are financially independent are nine times less likely to be abused.

00:29:09.887 –> 00:29:14.627
Schijns: If you’re being abused either verbally or mentally every day, it’s very hard to be good at your career.

00:29:14.627 –> 00:29:24.927
Schijns: We see, and by the way, if you’re thinking, oh, no one I know in this industry is being abused, at any point in time in their life, one in five women will be abused by someone in their family or someone they know.

00:29:24.927 –> 00:29:28.187
Schijns: I am a survival of domestic abuse.

00:29:28.187 –> 00:29:35.447
Schijns: I was hospitalized after a horrific attack, after years of emotional abuse, it turned physical and I was hospitalized for that abuse.

00:29:35.447 –> 00:29:39.687
Schijns: I talk about it because if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody.

00:29:39.687 –> 00:29:48.847
Schijns: So I am dedicating myself and my new husband, second husband, obviously, is very supportive as our main children to help women avoid that.

00:29:49.207 –> 00:29:54.007
Schijns: The best way to avoid that is for women to get a good career in financial independence.

00:29:54.007 –> 00:29:54.867
Schijns: That is the best way.

00:29:54.867 –> 00:29:59.427
Schijns: It’s how I was able to leave and get out of a bad situation when many people are not.

00:29:59.427 –> 00:30:00.947
Schijns: So I talk about it a lot.

00:30:01.327 –> 00:30:07.187
Schijns: If you’re listening to this webinar and you are in an abusive situation, please contact me.

00:30:07.187 –> 00:30:07.867
Schijns: I will help you.

00:30:07.867 –> 00:30:08.907
Schijns: We will help you get out.

00:30:08.907 –> 00:30:10.127
Schijns: We will help you get help.

00:30:10.127 –> 00:30:17.567
Schijns: We will help you get the resources that you need to get out of that horrific situation and start to gain your independence.

00:30:17.567 –> 00:30:25.647
Schijns: But that’s why I do what I do to help other women avoid that history that I have.

00:30:25.647 –> 00:30:26.267
Roddy: Yeah.

00:30:26.267 –> 00:30:26.907
Roddy: So thank you for that.

00:30:26.907 –> 00:30:33.707
Roddy: I’m sorry that you’ve experienced that, but God bless you for helping other people.

00:30:33.707 –> 00:30:37.027
Roddy: Is there anything we can do as an industry?

00:30:37.027 –> 00:30:39.547
Roddy: I’ll give you an example.

00:30:39.547 –> 00:30:43.427
Roddy: So we’re going to talk about RSPA Inspire the Leadership Conference in a little bit.

00:30:43.427 –> 00:30:49.587
Roddy: When we had Jay McBain on a panel a couple of years ago, we invited him and he said, I know what my wife is going to say.

00:30:49.707 –> 00:30:52.387
Roddy: So his wife is involved in the channel.

00:30:52.387 –> 00:30:53.347
Schijns: Michelle’s worked for me.

00:30:53.347 –> 00:30:54.967
Schijns: So yes, I know Michelle well.

00:30:55.047 –> 00:30:56.107
Roddy: So she’s been involved in the channel.

00:30:56.107 –> 00:30:57.987
Roddy: He said, I know she’s going to say another mantle.

00:30:58.407 –> 00:31:00.507
Roddy: It’s just a bunch of male panel.

00:31:00.507 –> 00:31:03.007
Roddy: But part of it is like Kathy Mead, our VP of Education.

00:31:03.007 –> 00:31:04.367
Roddy: I talk about who to put on the panel.

00:31:04.367 –> 00:31:10.547
Roddy: A lot of times, it’s like we don’t see a lot of women in leadership positions who are then also attending the Inspire event.

00:31:10.547 –> 00:31:14.187
Roddy: Not that there are none, but it’s just a lower percent.

00:31:15.187 –> 00:31:23.147
Roddy: There are some things, I won’t get into all the details that we’ve done to try to encourage and get women on stages, moderators or things of that nature.

00:31:23.147 –> 00:31:35.067
Roddy: But what could the listeners do in terms of, and the viewers do, in terms of approving the situation, because it seems like there’s half the population that is not being brought to the table.

00:31:35.067 –> 00:31:41.267
Schijns: And I always tell them, first of all, my best sponsors and mentors have been men, so men have to be involved.

00:31:41.267 –> 00:31:44.127
Schijns: We can’t say, oh, let’s let the women go in a room and figure it out.

00:31:44.127 –> 00:31:46.527
Roddy: A separatist society is not the answer.

00:31:46.527 –> 00:31:47.107
Schijns: Exactly.

00:31:47.247 –> 00:31:51.607
Schijns: And I hate them when it’s all female panels, because I’m like, that’s not really an answer.

00:31:51.627 –> 00:31:55.207
Schijns: So what I tell men is, look, pick somebody who’s developing in your organization.

00:31:55.207 –> 00:32:04.927
Schijns: If you’re an RSPA member, and you’re listening to this, and you’re going to one of the RSPA events, pick a female in your organization who you think has the headroom to grow.

00:32:04.927 –> 00:32:07.227
Schijns: Bring them to the event with you.

00:32:07.227 –> 00:32:08.287
Schijns: Show them around.

00:32:08.287 –> 00:32:10.867
Schijns: Introduce them to people.

00:32:10.867 –> 00:32:14.267
Schijns: Make sure that they start to develop a network of others.

00:32:14.267 –> 00:32:15.727
Schijns: That’s how we’re going to make the difference.

00:32:15.727 –> 00:32:18.707
Schijns: The difference is not come to the event, talk about it.

00:32:18.927 –> 00:32:20.387
Schijns: The difference is bring somebody.

00:32:21.647 –> 00:32:27.987
Schijns: Maybe even Jim, we develop a women’s developing network at RSPA or something, but that’s the first thing.

00:32:27.987 –> 00:32:31.727
Schijns: The second thing is talk to women and say, what’s your career plan?

00:32:31.727 –> 00:32:33.827
Schijns: Where can we help?

00:32:33.827 –> 00:32:38.467
Schijns: Sometimes the simplest thing, just where do you want to get in your career?

00:32:38.467 –> 00:32:39.667
Schijns: How can I help?

00:32:39.667 –> 00:32:45.507
Schijns: I have a one-page career plan when they send out to people and it stuns me how people struggle to fill it out at first.

00:32:45.507 –> 00:32:48.387
Schijns: But once they do, it really clarifies exactly what they want to do.

00:32:49.827 –> 00:32:51.087
Schijns: That to me is the discussion.

00:32:51.087 –> 00:32:52.147
Schijns: It’s just where do you want to get to?

00:32:52.147 –> 00:32:55.527
Schijns: Because not everybody wants to be in the leadership realm.

00:32:55.527 –> 00:32:59.287
Schijns: Some people are very happy being an individual contributor with an expertise.

00:32:59.287 –> 00:33:00.607
Schijns: But what do they want to do?

00:33:00.607 –> 00:33:01.367
Schijns: What are their goals?

00:33:01.367 –> 00:33:02.287
Schijns: What are their ambitions?

00:33:02.407 –> 00:33:05.427
Schijns: How do you personally help them?

00:33:05.427 –> 00:33:07.887
Schijns: It doesn’t help them when we sit around and talk about it.

00:33:07.887 –> 00:33:17.507
Schijns: It helps them when we say, you know what, I’ll spend an hour with you and show you how to do that, or you don’t know how to read a P&L, let me show you how to read a P&L, actual actions that will help them develop.

00:33:17.767 –> 00:33:21.327
Roddy: The actual teaching, building their knowledge and skills.

00:33:21.327 –> 00:33:24.127
Roddy: Before I get to the official commercial, I’m going to give a couple of plugs.

00:33:24.127 –> 00:33:30.787
Roddy: First, we are launching in 2025 for all our listeners, we’re calling the Future Industry Leader Program.

00:33:30.787 –> 00:33:41.207
Roddy: So if there’s a student who’s affiliated with an RSPA member, they can go to RetailNOW for free and get to experience it just like what Janet was just talking about.

00:33:41.207 –> 00:33:41.547
Roddy: Yes.

00:33:41.547 –> 00:33:51.607
Roddy: Reach out to us folks if you’re interested in learning more about that, and also say just a message just to the men, because I’ve been in the spot that you alluded to, like, boy, do I go in this car with the woman?

00:33:51.607 –> 00:33:52.707
Roddy: Do I go out to lunch?

00:33:52.707 –> 00:33:54.127
Roddy: Like, would I do that and all those things?

00:33:54.127 –> 00:34:04.687
Roddy: And to me, it’s like, if you do that same thing with a guy, you do the same thing with a woman, like just make sure you are behaving on the up and up in every situation whatsoever.

00:34:04.687 –> 00:34:10.327
Roddy: And even if when there are no women in the room, you shouldn’t be making comments like, it’s just those guys talking about these things.

00:34:10.747 –> 00:34:15.447
Roddy: And if a guy brings it up, no, you have to be able to shut it down and say that is not appropriate.

00:34:15.547 –> 00:34:21.907
Roddy: So just a quick aside, I remember interviewing a woman and she was an attractive young woman.

00:34:21.907 –> 00:34:24.727
Roddy: And so guys would say like, oh, we got to hire her.

00:34:24.727 –> 00:34:27.747
Roddy: And I’d be like, you can’t do that.

00:34:27.747 –> 00:34:29.607
Roddy: Don’t say, hey, I’m just joking.

00:34:29.607 –> 00:34:30.507
Roddy: It doesn’t matter if you’re joking.

00:34:30.507 –> 00:34:31.307
Schijns: It doesn’t matter.

00:34:31.507 –> 00:34:32.667
Schijns: It’s uncomfortable.

00:34:32.667 –> 00:34:36.267
Schijns: And you wouldn’t like it if it was turned around and everybody was like, oh, he’s handsome.

00:34:36.267 –> 00:34:37.167
Schijns: Let’s hire him.

00:34:37.167 –> 00:34:38.707
Schijns: You would say, what?

00:34:38.707 –> 00:34:42.327
Schijns: You know, you pick somebody based on that, on either gender.

00:34:42.327 –> 00:34:42.547
Schijns: Right.

00:34:42.547 –> 00:34:49.167
Roddy: And then if it’s acceptable, why did you wait until she was out of earshot before you said it’s not acceptable?

00:34:49.167 –> 00:34:52.327
Schijns: If you wouldn’t say it to someone’s face, you shouldn’t say it behind their back.

00:34:52.327 –> 00:34:52.627
Schijns: Right.

00:34:52.627 –> 00:34:53.427
Roddy: Yes.

00:34:53.427 –> 00:34:55.047
Roddy: So that’s what I guess my message to men.

00:34:55.047 –> 00:35:03.607
Roddy: So I guess the other thing is I went to a very, I’m trying to think the word I’m looking for, but it’s a Christian school.

00:35:03.607 –> 00:35:08.747
Roddy: And they like the pastor had a rule, I will never be alone with a woman like in a car driving somewhere.

00:35:08.767 –> 00:35:10.607
Roddy: And I’m like, well, come on.

00:35:10.827 –> 00:35:11.567
Schijns: Why?

00:35:11.567 –> 00:35:15.707
Schijns: Because you’re worried you’re going to do something wrong.

00:35:16.567 –> 00:35:19.387
Roddy: What a terrible statement because it made it look like women were lesser.

00:35:19.387 –> 00:35:24.667
Roddy: And it’s like, you’re going to have a one-on-one meeting with a guy, but you won’t have that with a woman.

00:35:24.667 –> 00:35:27.507
Schijns: Well, and that’s what that lean in organization data showed.

00:35:27.507 –> 00:35:32.567
Schijns: Men did 64 percent of the men said that they didn’t want to have one-on-one alone with a female.

00:35:32.567 –> 00:35:34.207
Schijns: Like that’s just unacceptable.

00:35:34.207 –> 00:35:35.427
Roddy: It’s unacceptable.

00:35:35.427 –> 00:35:36.327
Schijns: Yeah.

00:35:36.587 –> 00:35:37.367
Schijns: Unacceptable.

00:35:38.187 –> 00:35:53.447
Roddy: That’s why I guess I say to guys if, so you got to do those meetings, but the pre-work you have to do is, don’t be an a-hole and don’t be making misogynistic comments or treating women like objects that people would suspect or think.

00:35:53.447 –> 00:36:01.087
Roddy: And here’s the whole thing, you do run the risk, if you do go and somebody could accuse you of something, yeah, they could, but a guy could accuse you of something, whatever.

00:36:01.867 –> 00:36:04.207
Schijns: Exactly, a guy could accuse you too, right?

00:36:04.207 –> 00:36:14.227
Schijns: We’re in a world where gender is very fluid, and so it could be anybody who accuses you of doing something, not just a female.

00:36:14.227 –> 00:36:16.107
Roddy: Yeah.

00:36:16.107 –> 00:36:25.187
Roddy: So guys, overcome that barrier, invest in all your people, don’t be drawing lines, artificial lines, especially based on gender.

00:36:25.247 –> 00:36:28.667
Roddy: So all right, this will be the most awkward segue into a commercial.

00:36:28.667 –> 00:36:35.727
Roddy: Let’s pause here and let our listeners and viewers know about the Retail Solutions Providers Association.

00:36:35.727 –> 00:36:44.147
Roddy: The RSPA is North America’s largest community of retail technology, VARS software providers, vendors, and distributors to accelerate your success through an RSPA membership.

00:36:44.147 –> 00:36:47.187
Roddy: Email membership at gorspa.org.

00:36:47.187 –> 00:36:52.487
Roddy: Also, we want to thank our sponsors who support the RSPA community and make this podcast and video series possible.

00:36:52.887 –> 00:36:55.067
Roddy: Our Platinum sponsor is Bluestar.

00:36:55.067 –> 00:36:59.967
Roddy: Our gold sponsors are Cocard, Epson, Heartland, and ScanSource.

00:36:59.967 –> 00:37:07.107
Roddy: Finally, registration is open now for Inspire 2025, the Retail IT channel’s premier leadership conference.

00:37:07.107 –> 00:37:11.407
Roddy: RSPA Inspire is set for January 26th through 29th in Curacao.

00:37:11.407 –> 00:37:18.487
Roddy: For more information, visit gorspa.org/inspire so you can experience networking nirvana.

00:37:18.487 –> 00:37:20.847
Roddy: And I wish I had to make this whole segue complete.

00:37:21.207 –> 00:37:28.047
Roddy: We had record female attendance at Inspire last year, and we’re hoping to do that again this year with record attendance.

00:37:28.047 –> 00:37:28.627
Roddy: Yes, exactly.

00:37:28.627 –> 00:37:30.887
Schijns: I’ll drag the number up plus one.

00:37:30.887 –> 00:37:31.487
Roddy: Thank you.

00:37:31.487 –> 00:37:32.767
Roddy: Thank you.

00:37:32.767 –> 00:37:40.527
Roddy: And so speaking of Inspire, you’re going to be moderating a discussion there that’s titled How Leadership Styles Shape Organizational Success.

00:37:40.527 –> 00:37:48.467
Roddy: So can you talk about, as we begin this journey down your personal leadership, how would you describe in particular your leadership style, Janet?

00:37:49.347 –> 00:37:55.407
Schijns: You know, I always struggle with this when people ask that because the trite answer is I’m a servant leader, right?

00:37:55.407 –> 00:37:57.567
Schijns: If you look at those charts, right?

00:37:57.567 –> 00:37:58.367
Schijns: I’m a servant leader.

00:37:58.367 –> 00:37:59.427
Schijns: I serve my people.

00:37:59.427 –> 00:38:01.807
Schijns: I think it was this cart that said there go my people.

00:38:01.807 –> 00:38:04.447
Schijns: I must follow them because I’m their leader.

00:38:04.447 –> 00:38:11.447
Schijns: So I very much believe I’m a servant leader, but I think it’s more nuanced than that now that we’re also leading machines, right?

00:38:11.447 –> 00:38:17.287
Schijns: With the advent of AI, it’s really not about just the people anymore.

00:38:17.547 –> 00:38:30.827
Schijns: This is an interesting moment in our industry’s kind of leadership journey, which is what kind of leader are you going to be when you have humans augmented by machines or potentially just machines augmented by humans?

00:38:30.827 –> 00:38:33.967
Schijns: If you think about the journey Microsoft’s on with Copilot, right?

00:38:33.967 –> 00:38:36.927
Schijns: It’s machines augmented by humans.

00:38:38.427 –> 00:38:47.427
Schijns: So I think that now my style of leadership is one of discovery and understanding as opposed to servant.

00:38:47.427 –> 00:38:56.507
Schijns: So my job now is to look and understand and be the person who demonstrates that understanding of a new way of working.

00:38:56.507 –> 00:38:58.767
Schijns: Because people are afraid.

00:38:58.767 –> 00:39:03.187
Schijns: That’s what I’m really seeing, particularly knowledge workers in our industry, they’re afraid.

00:39:03.187 –> 00:39:05.867
Schijns: Is AI coming for my job?

00:39:05.867 –> 00:39:08.547
Schijns: I tell everyone AI is not coming for your job.

00:39:08.547 –> 00:39:12.427
Schijns: The person who uses AI to do your job better, they’re coming for your job.

00:39:14.447 –> 00:39:29.347
Schijns: I’m trying to encourage people that are leaders to kind of walk back their leadership style a little bit from what it was just, hey, whatever the function of my team is, I can lead them to take that hill, right?

00:39:29.347 –> 00:39:33.707
Schijns: And try to think about how you learn and discover the new ways that people are going to work.

00:39:33.707 –> 00:39:39.727
Schijns: There’s a lot more nuanced, and the hill is a little more of a lattice or something than a hill.

00:39:39.727 –> 00:39:48.607
Schijns: And how do you put people in the right spots in it so you have the board coverage, you’re almost playing tic-tac or checkers versus take the hill.

00:39:48.607 –> 00:39:53.707
Schijns: And so my leadership level is, I think, evolving because of that.

00:39:53.707 –> 00:39:54.307
Roddy: Got it.

00:39:54.307 –> 00:39:54.867
Roddy: Interesting.

00:39:54.867 –> 00:39:57.687
Roddy: So I guess, what are you doing then to keep up?

00:39:57.687 –> 00:39:59.007
Roddy: Like, what things do you do in order?

00:39:59.127 –> 00:40:00.087
Roddy: How are you changing?

00:40:00.087 –> 00:40:03.827
Roddy: What things do you do to make sure you’re changing in the right direction?

00:40:03.827 –> 00:40:08.467
Schijns: Well, the first thing that JSG, we do a lot of is reverse mentoring.

00:40:08.467 –> 00:40:21.907
Schijns: I started this actually when I was at Verizon, which was that each of the executives in my team had to have a mentor way down in the organization, someone new to the organization, but that had skills they didn’t have.

00:40:21.907 –> 00:40:34.247
Schijns: Social media being a phenomenal example of a skill that many people of a certain age struggle to understand why it’s important, and younger people tend to know exactly how to make it sing.

00:40:34.247 –> 00:40:48.307
Schijns: But to have a reverse mentor, to have somebody who is actually day to day struggling with those very issues, whose job is being augmented by AI, who is using the tools, who is thinking about things differently, right?

00:40:48.307 –> 00:40:51.987
Schijns: Who is buying something in a store with Bitcoin.

00:40:51.987 –> 00:40:57.407
Schijns: People that are just different and have different experiences and really launch that reverse mentorship.

00:40:57.407 –> 00:41:01.067
Schijns: If you’re in a small partner company, you don’t have that.

00:41:01.067 –> 00:41:07.107
Schijns: Go and look for that at your local tech school, go and look for it at your local, look for degrees, gaming degrees.

00:41:07.107 –> 00:41:12.227
Schijns: They tend to be really interesting, the people that want to build games and softwares and things like that.

00:41:12.227 –> 00:41:15.987
Schijns: Go and look and ask at your local community college, right?

00:41:15.987 –> 00:41:17.607
Schijns: Who’s showing skills in this?

00:41:17.607 –> 00:41:19.527
Schijns: I need a mentor.

00:41:19.527 –> 00:41:21.467
Schijns: At first, it sounds very counterintuitive.

00:41:21.467 –> 00:41:25.687
Schijns: How could a 22-year-old be a 45 or 65-year-old’s mentor?

00:41:25.747 –> 00:41:27.927
Schijns: Seems like, what?

00:41:27.927 –> 00:41:28.987
Schijns: But it actually works, right?

00:41:28.987 –> 00:41:29.947
Schijns: It challenges you.

00:41:29.947 –> 00:41:32.467
Schijns: That’s the one thing I’m doing is surrounding myself.

00:41:32.467 –> 00:41:34.587
Schijns: We call them the cadults.

00:41:34.587 –> 00:41:35.307
Roddy: Yes.

00:41:35.307 –> 00:41:39.767
Schijns: We were struggling to find a word for what they were, because they’re technically adults, right?

00:41:39.767 –> 00:41:43.527
Schijns: They’re over 21, but they’re still young, so we call them the cadults.

00:41:43.527 –> 00:41:44.707
Schijns: They love it.

00:41:44.707 –> 00:41:46.387
Schijns: Kids that are adults.

00:41:47.167 –> 00:41:52.587
Schijns: They really have made a difference in how I lead, because they challenge, they don’t know.

00:41:53.787 –> 00:42:01.367
Schijns: They don’t know that the world is supposed to be hierarchical, as a great example, and so they see a flat world, completely flat, social media.

00:42:01.367 –> 00:42:05.367
Schijns: Think about Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, whatever you like, Facebook, I don’t care.

00:42:05.367 –> 00:42:07.207
Schijns: All the Facebook is kind of like your grandma’s platform.

00:42:07.207 –> 00:42:12.187
Roddy: You might have to find a 30-year-old to a 30-year-old cadult.

00:42:12.187 –> 00:42:14.027
Schijns: Yeah, cadult, to help you there.

00:42:14.087 –> 00:42:15.967
Schijns: Maybe 40.

00:42:15.967 –> 00:42:20.507
Schijns: But if you think about those, those are not hierarchical platforms.

00:42:20.907 –> 00:42:27.267
Schijns: Those are something where anybody who, if they create good enough content, can become important.

00:42:27.267 –> 00:42:29.947
Schijns: They don’t have to have a degree, a background or whatever.

00:42:29.947 –> 00:42:38.407
Schijns: And so that kind of flat concept of how the world looks, is something that’s really changed my perspective as a leader.

00:42:38.647 –> 00:42:46.607
Schijns: That old fashioned, okay, if I want to solve a problem, I’m going to go to the three people, five people, whatever, that report to me and say, guys, figure this out.

00:42:46.607 –> 00:42:50.387
Schijns: You never would go like four layers down in your org and ask somebody down there.

00:42:50.387 –> 00:42:53.607
Schijns: That wasn’t even permitted in some big companies, right?

00:42:53.607 –> 00:42:57.147
Schijns: So your leadership style became very command and control.

00:42:57.147 –> 00:42:59.827
Schijns: Now my leadership style is very much flat.

00:42:59.827 –> 00:43:01.067
Schijns: Anybody can have a good idea.

00:43:01.067 –> 00:43:02.247
Schijns: Anybody can bring an idea.

00:43:02.247 –> 00:43:03.307
Schijns: I can reach out.

00:43:03.307 –> 00:43:09.507
Schijns: I have calls with the folks in our organization that are entry, you know, new to the job, new to the role, new to the company.

00:43:09.507 –> 00:43:11.307
Schijns: I talk with them more than I talk with my leaders.

00:43:12.727 –> 00:43:15.087
Schijns: To get the real pulse.

00:43:15.087 –> 00:43:21.407
Schijns: And they’re giving me ideas that the rest of the team frankly wouldn’t even see.

00:43:21.407 –> 00:43:25.467
Schijns: Because we’re so ingrained in our domain expertise.

00:43:25.727 –> 00:43:32.887
Schijns: I mean, we’re talking, my team at JSG, like most of the people listening, their teams are highly talented, lots of years of experience, lots of years of doing it.

00:43:32.887 –> 00:43:36.067
Schijns: They know where all the bodies are buried and all the secrets are.

00:43:36.067 –> 00:43:40.487
Schijns: But they don’t know what’s happening in the outside world that’s going to change how a shopper shops.

00:43:41.127 –> 00:43:52.567
Schijns: So, I was out with a group of folks that I mentor, and I said, I was in Chicago for an event, Microsoft event, and I said, I want to go out with you guys, let’s just go out.

00:43:52.567 –> 00:43:57.727
Schijns: So, about six of us went out, and just do whatever you would normally do.

00:43:57.727 –> 00:44:01.927
Schijns: So, in the first half hour, they went to two different Starbucks.

00:44:01.927 –> 00:44:04.807
Schijns: Now, why would you go to two different Starbucks in the first half an hour?

00:44:04.807 –> 00:44:14.767
Schijns: Oh, because they were looking for a collective cup that they wanted, and they weren’t going to buy from the first Starbucks, so they were hoping the second Starbucks had the collector cup.

00:44:15.887 –> 00:44:20.427
Schijns: And then, they walked in the store, but they ordered on their phone.

00:44:20.427 –> 00:44:24.607
Schijns: They still did the mobile order, even though they walked into the store, right?

00:44:24.607 –> 00:44:27.567
Schijns: They were like, oh, that’s too much work.

00:44:27.567 –> 00:44:29.427
Schijns: And then, I’ll just wait for my mobile order.

00:44:29.427 –> 00:44:31.687
Schijns: And you started to see behaviors.

00:44:32.907 –> 00:44:36.727
Schijns: So, we walked by a theater and said, oh, I wonder if that show is any good.

00:44:36.827 –> 00:44:41.447
Schijns: Well, poof, one of them is on Reddit, one of them is on Insta.

00:44:41.447 –> 00:44:45.287
Schijns: Hey, stand in front of this theater, let me know if you did it, hit me up.

00:44:45.287 –> 00:44:48.007
Schijns: They managed to score four free tickets to the show.

00:44:48.007 –> 00:44:48.567
Roddy: Wow.

00:44:48.567 –> 00:44:50.827
Schijns: Because somebody had tickets they weren’t going to use.

00:44:51.347 –> 00:44:57.507
Schijns: So, it’s a different way they think about retail, about hospitality, about grocery, about everything.

00:44:58.707 –> 00:45:10.587
Schijns: And the final part of the story is we walked into a grocery store, and how they shopped was so different than how we go to the, I at least go to the grocery store with a purpose in mind.

00:45:10.587 –> 00:45:12.687
Schijns: I have a list, I’m going to buy this stuff.

00:45:12.687 –> 00:45:15.707
Schijns: No, no, they were browsing in a grocery store.

00:45:15.707 –> 00:45:17.127
Schijns: They wanted to interact with the product.

00:45:17.127 –> 00:45:18.847
Schijns: Where do you think these eggs are from?

00:45:19.507 –> 00:45:20.547
Schijns: They wanted to interact.

00:45:20.547 –> 00:45:26.067
Schijns: And in the past, I was always like, seriously, you’re going to put a QR on an egg carton so I can see where my eggs were raised?

00:45:26.347 –> 00:45:27.807
Schijns: That’s weird.

00:45:27.807 –> 00:45:29.547
Schijns: But they actually played it.

00:45:29.547 –> 00:45:32.167
Schijns: Like, oh cool, that’s cute.

00:45:32.167 –> 00:45:35.407
Schijns: So it’s just a different journey.

00:45:35.407 –> 00:45:48.987
Schijns: And so as a leader, I’m trying to make sure that the voices I hear in my head about our journey are actually what’s happening in the industries that we serve, as opposed to what we know used to happen.

00:45:48.987 –> 00:45:49.447
Roddy: Yes.

00:45:49.447 –> 00:45:53.627
Schijns: And that’s what’s been the most, I think, substantive for me.

00:45:53.627 –> 00:45:54.067
Roddy: Excellent.

00:45:54.067 –> 00:46:05.487
Roddy: Yeah, it seems like a recurring theme for you is making sure you just don’t have a bunch of people around you, whether it’s staff or people in the industry who are doing the same thing you’re doing, and so they’re just going to all encourage each other.

00:46:05.487 –> 00:46:07.487
Roddy: Yeah, that’s good.

00:46:07.487 –> 00:46:13.167
Schijns: And it’s so true when you’ve taken the hill 20 times, you feel like the 21st time you can take it again, right?

00:46:13.167 –> 00:46:16.127
Schijns: And then that experience comes back to hurt you.

00:46:16.127 –> 00:46:16.507
Roddy: Yes.

00:46:16.507 –> 00:46:22.547
Schijns: Because you can’t see the broader vision of what’s actually happening now.

00:46:22.547 –> 00:46:29.387
Schijns: And so people will say, I’ve talked at bars all the time and they go, I’m exhausted, I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked before.

00:46:29.387 –> 00:46:31.607
Schijns: Why are you working harder than you ever worked before?

00:46:31.607 –> 00:46:43.987
Schijns: Because the thing you used to do that had an 80 percent success rate, then had a 75 percent, then a 70, then a 60, now it’s like a 30 percent success rate and you’re still doing it.

00:46:43.987 –> 00:46:44.227
Roddy: Yeah.

00:46:44.367 –> 00:46:52.747
Schijns: And particularly getting new clients is the area where I see people just killing themselves to get new clients, and it’s gotten and they’ll say it so hard.

00:46:53.327 –> 00:47:04.067
Schijns: Well, that’s partially on you as a leader for not figuring out the actual way to get clients in a new digital world, and it is going to get harder and harder and harder, and you just don’t get new clients.

00:47:04.067 –> 00:47:04.247
Roddy: Yeah.

00:47:04.247 –> 00:47:08.927
Roddy: And there’s a blending of your experience and the new, it’s not the throw one.

00:47:08.927 –> 00:47:14.847
Roddy: I remember working with a co-worker, he was actually older than me, but he said, any rule that we have that’s 10 years old, we should throw it out.

00:47:14.847 –> 00:47:17.707
Roddy: I’m like, thou shalt not steal?

00:47:17.707 –> 00:47:19.027
Roddy: That’s been around for a while.

00:47:19.027 –> 00:47:22.267
Roddy: So there’s some things that are tried and true, but then there are other things.

00:47:22.267 –> 00:47:24.227
Roddy: Like you said, you have to make it together.

00:47:24.227 –> 00:47:25.147
Roddy: Or tweet them.

00:47:25.147 –> 00:47:26.287
Schijns: You know, you tweet them.

00:47:26.287 –> 00:47:27.507
Schijns: Yeah, yeah.

00:47:27.507 –> 00:47:36.667
Roddy: So my last question for you, Janet, since we’re almost out of time here for talking today, I’m hoping you can talk about an experience that shaped you as a leader.

00:47:36.667 –> 00:47:38.867
Roddy: It could be recent, it could be from really early in your career.

00:47:38.867 –> 00:47:44.707
Roddy: I’m curious about a learning experience or a story that you can tell us that has shaped you as a leader.

00:47:44.707 –> 00:47:51.467
Roddy: One story you will never forget, and it’s kind of in that foundation of a lot of what you do as a leader, if you’re willing.

00:47:51.467 –> 00:47:59.007
Schijns: I know a lot of you have seen me speak, and I’m considered to be a very good speaker, and I say this for a reason.

00:47:59.407 –> 00:48:00.887
Schijns: I was a horrific speaker.

00:48:00.887 –> 00:48:02.827
Schijns: I was the most horrible speaker.

00:48:02.827 –> 00:48:07.507
Schijns: I got out of school and I joined the leadership development program at Lancôme.

00:48:07.507 –> 00:48:11.527
Schijns: Lancôme owns L’Oreal, Nestle is part of that chain.

00:48:11.807 –> 00:48:15.187
Schijns: Nestle owns Lancôme, and they own Sandoz.

00:48:15.187 –> 00:48:17.247
Schijns: So they had this great leadership development program.

00:48:17.247 –> 00:48:17.787
Schijns: I joined.

00:48:17.787 –> 00:48:18.487
Schijns: How fun.

00:48:18.827 –> 00:48:23.107
Schijns: Out of school, big cosmetic company, New York City.

00:48:23.107 –> 00:48:25.387
Schijns: I get my first speech and it was bad.

00:48:25.387 –> 00:48:28.427
Schijns: And I know from being in college, I’m a horrible presenter.

00:48:28.427 –> 00:48:33.107
Schijns: It’s like my big fear, like most people, more afraid to present than to die.

00:48:34.647 –> 00:48:39.367
Schijns: This was the seminal moment as a beginning leader on the leadership track.

00:48:39.967 –> 00:48:46.047
Schijns: The gentleman who was running that group, Jack Kinn Cannon, see, still remember his name?

00:48:46.047 –> 00:48:49.327
Schijns: He didn’t believe that I was a bad speaker.

00:48:49.327 –> 00:48:55.787
Schijns: And I said, no, no, no, but I am, like, seriously, like, you know, at church, at college, at everywhere, I’ve tried everywhere, I’m bad.

00:48:55.787 –> 00:48:59.247
Schijns: We’re going to send you to this thing called Commus Bond in New York City.

00:48:59.247 –> 00:49:02.147
Schijns: It’s a school to help people communicate.

00:49:02.147 –> 00:49:04.267
Schijns: Because I don’t believe I made a bad hire.

00:49:04.267 –> 00:49:07.347
Schijns: Now, a lot of bosses would have said, Oh my God, she’s a horrible speaker.

00:49:07.467 –> 00:49:09.587
Schijns: She’s never going to do well in this program.

00:49:09.587 –> 00:49:14.067
Schijns: The next time we have a list, let’s put her on it and get rid of her.

00:49:14.067 –> 00:49:16.587
Schijns: He said, I don’t make bad hires.

00:49:17.627 –> 00:49:22.927
Schijns: So you’re going to go to this school at night after work.

00:49:22.927 –> 00:49:24.647
Schijns: You’re going to learn to speak.

00:49:25.087 –> 00:49:27.747
Schijns: I’m like, this is not going to work.

00:49:27.747 –> 00:49:36.027
Schijns: Then I got here and they watched me and they taped you, and they humiliated you, and then they finally said, it’s coming out on the stage where you’re getting hit.

00:49:36.607 –> 00:49:41.627
Schijns: It’s that first moment when you walk out, you get the nerves, and then you can’t keep going.

00:49:41.627 –> 00:49:50.467
Schijns: So they retrained me to pick, they had me watch tons of video, pick somebody when they walk out on stage that you think is like badass, right?

00:49:50.467 –> 00:49:52.727
Schijns: You’re like, I wish I was like that.

00:49:52.727 –> 00:49:56.187
Schijns: And mine came up to Johnny Cash.

00:49:56.187 –> 00:49:59.727
Schijns: I loved how he swaggered on the stage, right?

00:49:59.727 –> 00:50:00.787
Schijns: He swaggered out.

00:50:00.787 –> 00:50:03.087
Schijns: If you watch me speak to this day, you’ll see me do it.

00:50:04.107 –> 00:50:08.487
Schijns: He swaggered out with his head down a little and then he raised his head up and he said, I’m Johnny Cash.

00:50:08.487 –> 00:50:09.167
Roddy: I’m Johnny Cash.

00:50:09.167 –> 00:50:09.427
Schijns: Right?

00:50:09.427 –> 00:50:12.887
Schijns: And you were like, they were like, woo!

00:50:12.887 –> 00:50:14.067
Schijns: So that’s who I picked.

00:50:14.067 –> 00:50:22.847
Schijns: All the way down was starting to wear longer jackets, duster jackets, black on stage primarily, black colors on stage, like really channeled him.

00:50:22.847 –> 00:50:30.747
Schijns: And even when I was introduced, like now later in my career, Janet Schijns, the voice of God, I still come out and go, hi, I’m Janet Schijns.

00:50:30.747 –> 00:50:34.927
Schijns: And I make a joke out of it, despite how it looks like it’s spelled, that’s how it’s pronounced.

00:50:34.927 –> 00:50:36.667
Schijns: And it made all the difference.

00:50:36.667 –> 00:50:38.827
Schijns: That five seconds, right?

00:50:38.827 –> 00:50:41.587
Schijns: Lets me get on stage and be like, I’m okay.

00:50:41.587 –> 00:50:41.867
Schijns: Right?

00:50:41.867 –> 00:50:48.447
Schijns: And they taught me where’s the music backstage, get out of your head, listen to the music, get pumped up, walk out, I’m Johnny Cash, right?

00:50:48.447 –> 00:50:49.827
Schijns: And then you’re fine.

00:50:49.827 –> 00:50:50.887
Schijns: And they were right.

00:50:50.887 –> 00:50:51.747
Schijns: My content was fine.

00:50:51.747 –> 00:50:52.387
Schijns: It wasn’t bad.

00:50:52.387 –> 00:50:57.067
Schijns: It was that I got out there, I got nervous, I got deer in the headlights, I couldn’t get out of it.

00:50:57.067 –> 00:50:58.547
Schijns: I was nervous the rest of the time.

00:50:58.547 –> 00:51:02.147
Schijns: I come out, I’m Johnny Cash, until I’m not nervous anymore, right?

00:51:02.147 –> 00:51:04.927
Schijns: Johnny Cash was never nervous in the moment in his life.

00:51:04.927 –> 00:51:13.967
Schijns: And so that was a leadership lesson for me because what it showed me, Jack and Cannon, a wonderful man, you don’t make bad hires, right?

00:51:13.967 –> 00:51:25.887
Schijns: That confidence that if you went through the process, you don’t make bad hires, figure out what’s holding the person back and get them to do it, and they will capture the world for you.

00:51:27.007 –> 00:51:31.107
Schijns: Then that leads me to the next part of this lesson.

00:51:31.107 –> 00:51:43.747
Schijns: As I was leaving L’Oreal when I had kids, and wanted something that wasn’t in New York City with 150,000 air miles a year, what was hard for me to leave him, right?

00:51:43.747 –> 00:51:47.047
Schijns: He said to me, don’t worry about it, you never leave Team Cannon.

00:51:47.047 –> 00:51:52.347
Schijns: He said, 10 years from now, five years from now, whatever, you need me, you call me.

00:51:52.347 –> 00:51:57.847
Schijns: I’ve carried that with me, and so I always say, you never leave Team Schijns.

00:51:57.847 –> 00:52:02.367
Schijns: Now, what I came away from that with was two things, and I mean that.

00:52:02.367 –> 00:52:07.827
Schijns: People that have worked for me 20 years ago, get laid off, call me, I’m helping them try to find a job or they’ll come back to work for me, right?

00:52:08.127 –> 00:52:12.287
Schijns: You never leave my team, you’re part of my team for life, was what I took from that.

00:52:12.287 –> 00:52:14.067
Schijns: You really invest in people, right?

00:52:14.067 –> 00:52:17.707
Schijns: If you believe you made a good hire, you made a good hire, don’t throw them out, right?

00:52:17.707 –> 00:52:19.447
Schijns: Just because of a mistake.

00:52:19.447 –> 00:52:28.287
Schijns: But what it really came back to when I looked at what he did, was that he was kinder than the situation called for, right?

00:52:28.287 –> 00:52:31.207
Schijns: He truly was, because I was bad at it, right?

00:52:31.207 –> 00:52:34.167
Schijns: And he could have been that boss and he wasn’t.

00:52:34.167 –> 00:52:36.267
Schijns: He was kinder than the situation called for.

00:52:36.267 –> 00:52:44.047
Schijns: And so that’s my leadership mantra, is in every situation, I’m kinder than the situation calls for.

00:52:44.047 –> 00:52:51.327
Schijns: And I’ve gotten a lot more mileage out of my people than most leaders do because of it, because they know I’m going to be kinder than the situation calls for.

00:52:51.767 –> 00:52:55.487
Roddy: But there’s an element to his, it was kindness and candor.

00:52:55.487 –> 00:52:58.267
Roddy: He didn’t say, oh no, Janet, that was a great speech.

00:52:58.267 –> 00:52:59.147
Schijns: That was a great speech.

00:52:59.147 –> 00:52:59.887
Roddy: Keep it up.

00:52:59.887 –> 00:53:03.787
Roddy: Oh, you’re awesome, like heart symbol, you know, stuff like that.

00:53:03.787 –> 00:53:11.427
Roddy: Like he was saying like, no, you, I believe what is in you just needs to be built and brought out.

00:53:11.427 –> 00:53:12.527
Schijns: Right, exactly.

00:53:12.527 –> 00:53:14.787
Schijns: And so I’ve really operated under that.

00:53:14.787 –> 00:53:18.527
Schijns: People can do anything if you help them, but be kind, right?

00:53:18.527 –> 00:53:19.447
Schijns: Be kind about it.

00:53:19.567 –> 00:53:25.067
Schijns: Don’t, because it would have been so easy for him to just be like, hey, get rid of her, right?

00:53:25.067 –> 00:53:28.707
Schijns: That would have been so easy for him, much easier than this, right?

00:53:28.707 –> 00:53:29.767
Schijns: This path.

00:53:29.767 –> 00:53:36.527
Schijns: But he took the harder path because it was the kind thing to do for someone who had picked a job at a school and come and invest it in your future.

00:53:36.527 –> 00:53:42.907
Schijns: And so I kind of try to run myself that way every day to give people a chance, be kinder than every situation calls for.

00:53:42.907 –> 00:53:47.227
Schijns: But I love your take on it, but also truthful, right?

00:53:47.227 –> 00:53:48.027
Schijns: And I was just sad.

00:53:48.027 –> 00:53:49.047
Schijns: I’ll kind of wrap up with this.

00:53:49.167 –> 00:53:59.607
Schijns: I was just at an event this fall and watched a speaker, a CEO of a company speak, and he was horrible.

00:53:59.607 –> 00:54:04.967
Schijns: And everybody in his echo chamber, after he got off stage, he was holding a grating did.

00:54:06.107 –> 00:54:11.227
Schijns: And then the next week, they were wondering why no partner signed up to be a partner with their company.

00:54:11.227 –> 00:54:12.347
Roddy: Yeah.

00:54:12.347 –> 00:54:14.587
Schijns: And he called me and said, what did you think?

00:54:14.587 –> 00:54:16.087
Schijns: And I said, oh, you’re horrible.

00:54:16.087 –> 00:54:16.807
Schijns: I said, I’m sorry.

00:54:16.807 –> 00:54:17.347
Schijns: It’s horrible.

00:54:17.347 –> 00:54:18.307
Schijns: I said, I don’t know what happened.

00:54:18.387 –> 00:54:19.427
Schijns: I know your content was good.

00:54:19.427 –> 00:54:21.447
Schijns: I don’t know if it got shook coming on stage.

00:54:21.447 –> 00:54:22.907
Schijns: I don’t know what happened.

00:54:22.907 –> 00:54:24.387
Schijns: But here’s what I’d recommend.

00:54:24.387 –> 00:54:28.707
Schijns: You know, I gave him a couple of things that he was like, thank God somebody told me the truth.

00:54:28.847 –> 00:54:35.967
Schijns: And so, you know, I think to your point, the kindness isn’t always blowing smoke at people.

00:54:35.967 –> 00:54:43.467
Schijns: The kindness sometimes is the being the kind enough person to tell the truth to someone that works for or with you.

00:54:43.467 –> 00:54:44.207
Roddy: Yeah.

00:54:44.207 –> 00:54:51.947
Roddy: The way I’ve always viewed it is if you’re crossing the street and you see the person stepping off the curb and a bus is coming, it’s probably unkind to say, get back on the curb.

00:54:51.947 –> 00:54:53.907
Roddy: They’re gonna be like, don’t yell at people.

00:54:53.907 –> 00:54:55.787
Roddy: It’s better than them getting plowed over.

00:54:55.787 –> 00:54:56.627
Schijns: By the bus.

00:54:56.647 –> 00:54:57.827
Roddy: By the bus, right?

00:54:57.827 –> 00:55:00.607
Roddy: Like you have to be the one who has…

00:55:00.607 –> 00:55:01.847
Schijns: The truth is kind.

00:55:01.847 –> 00:55:03.247
Schijns: Yeah, the truth is kind.

00:55:03.247 –> 00:55:03.527
Roddy: Right.

00:55:03.527 –> 00:55:06.487
Roddy: It’s how you do it, but you really care for that person and their development.

00:55:06.487 –> 00:55:08.107
Roddy: You are not gonna let them fail.

00:55:08.107 –> 00:55:11.007
Roddy: And so if you have to be the one to tell them, you gotta be the one to tell them.

00:55:11.007 –> 00:55:11.887
Schijns: That’s right.

00:55:11.887 –> 00:55:12.387
Schijns: Absolutely.

00:55:12.387 –> 00:55:14.387
Schijns: You can always use that Oreo cookie approach, right?

00:55:14.387 –> 00:55:17.807
Schijns: Like a piece of good news, like, wow, I really loved your content.

00:55:17.807 –> 00:55:20.227
Schijns: I know you struggled a bit with the delivery.

00:55:20.227 –> 00:55:22.567
Schijns: I do think your solution is great for the partners.

00:55:22.567 –> 00:55:24.407
Schijns: So how else do we get the word out?

00:55:24.407 –> 00:55:26.947
Schijns: So you can sandwich it in between goodness.

00:55:26.947 –> 00:55:27.227
Roddy: Yes.

00:55:27.227 –> 00:55:28.987
Roddy: There are good parts here, so it can be done better.

00:55:28.987 –> 00:55:29.667
Roddy: Correct.

00:55:29.667 –> 00:55:32.207
Roddy: Well, that’s a fabulous story to end on.

00:55:32.207 –> 00:55:34.887
Roddy: So well, that does it for this episode of The Trusted Advisor.

00:55:34.887 –> 00:55:42.187
Roddy: If you enjoyed our discussion, be sure to subscribe to the RSPA YouTube channel and The Trusted Advisor podcast so you never miss an episode.

00:55:42.187 –> 00:55:46.767
Roddy: Before we go, big thanks again to Janet Schijns for sharing her wisdom with us today.

00:55:46.767 –> 00:55:55.047
Roddy: Thanks also to RSPA Marketing Director, Chris Arnold for his production work, Joseph McDade for our music, and last but not least, thanks so much to you for listening.

00:55:55.047 –> 00:56:02.147
Roddy: Our goal at the RSPA is to accelerate the success of our members in the retail technology ecosystem by providing knowledge and connections.

00:56:02.147 –> 00:56:06.127
Roddy: For more information, please visit our website at gorspa.org.

00:56:06.127 –> 00:56:09.687
Roddy: Thanks for listening and goodbye everybody.