In Episode 125 of “The Trusted Advisor,” RSPA CEO Jim Roddy talks ethical capitalism and leadership with Bob Chapman, the Chairman and CEO of Barry-Wehmiller, a $3.6-billion global capital equipment and engineering solutions company. Among Chapman’s accolades are being named the CEO of the Year by the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM), the #3 CEO in the world in by Inc. Magazine, and a Top 10 Social Capital CEO by International Business Times. Chapman is author of the Wall Street Journal best-selling book Everybody Matters: The Extraordinary Power of Caring for Your People Like Family.
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Full episode transcript via Apple Podcasts:
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Roddy: Welcome to another episode of the Trusted Advisor Podcast and Video Series, powered by the Retail Solutions Providers Association.
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Roddy: Our goal on the pod is to accelerate the success of today’s and tomorrow’s leaders in the retail IT industry.
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Roddy: I’m Jim Roddy back with you again.
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Roddy: Thank you so much for joining us.
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Roddy: Now, frequent listeners and viewers of our podcast know that throughout 2024, we’ve talked with leaders from both within and outside the RSPA member community, about their leadership journeys and what they’ve learned along the way.
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Roddy: Now, this will be one of those ventures outside of our industry.
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Roddy: Our guest who will join us in a moment is Bob Chapman, the Chairman and CEO of Barry-Wehmiller, a $3.6 billion global capital equipment and engineering solutions company, with more than 12,000 employees.
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Roddy: Among Bob’s accolades are being named CEO of the Year by the Society for Human Resource Management known as SHRM.
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Roddy: Bob’s also been named the number three CEO in the world by Inc.
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Roddy: Magazine and a top ten social capital CEO by International Business Times.
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Roddy: He’s grown Barry-Wehmiller from $20 million in revenue and a weak financial position to where it is today.
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Roddy: Again, at $3.6 billion, that’s 180 times larger than when it was when he first took over.
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Roddy: He’s done that through what he calls truly human leadership, a people-centric approach where team members feel valued, cared for and integral to the company’s purpose.
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Roddy: Now, I got to know Bob through his Wall Street Journal bestseller book Everybody Matters, The Extraordinary Power of Caring for Your People Like Family.
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Roddy: The part of the book that really resonated with me is a section called Beyond Self-Interest and Ethical Foundation for Capitalism, and that’s going to be the focus of our conversation today.
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Roddy: Now, before we talk ethical capitalism, let’s be capitalists and thank our sponsors who make the RSPA community and all its activities and this podcast possible.
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Roddy: Do you like how I’ve blended that right in there?
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Roddy: Seamless transition.
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Roddy: Our platinum sponsor is Blue Star.
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Roddy: Our gold sponsors are Cocard, Epson, Heartland, and Scanstores.
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Roddy: Also, we want to remind you that registration is now open for Inspire 2025, the Retail IT Channel’s premier leadership conference.
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Roddy: RSPA Inspire is set for January 26th or 29th in Curaçao.
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Roddy: For more information, visit gorsp.org/inspire, so you can experience networking nirvana.
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Roddy: Last thing I’ll say before we welcome Bob to the podcast, the power of the RSPA community is sharing wisdom, sharing ideas, sharing insights.
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Roddy: I wouldn’t have come across Bob’s book if it wasn’t recommended to me by an RSPA member, Jeremy Julian of CBS North Star.
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Roddy: He recommended Everybody Matters and that led to this podcast today.
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Roddy: So thank you Jeremy Julian for the assist on today’s podcast.
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Roddy: All right.
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Roddy: I hope you enjoy our conversation today with Bob Chapman.
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Roddy: Bob, so great to have you.
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Roddy: Welcome to The Trusted Advisor.
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Roddy: Thanks for making time to talk with our members today.
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Chapman: I appreciate this opportunity to share a message with your audience.
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Roddy: Great, and so as I said at the outset, the focus today is gonna be on ethical capitalism.
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Roddy: And so one passage from your book really jumped out to me.
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Roddy: And it says, early capitalism was rooted in Judeo-Christian morality.
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Roddy: Capitalism lost its ethical foundation and became strictly amoral, not immoral, making no reference to doing the right thing for the right reasons.
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Roddy: Any sphere of human activity that touches other humans must have a moral slash ethical foundation.
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Roddy: Otherwise, it drifts towards objectification and exploitation.
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Roddy: Now, that approach is far different today from the attitude that most people hold.
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Roddy: They say it’s just business, right?
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Roddy: That is a justification for their actions.
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Roddy: Can you expand on the concept for us that business has an ethical foundation?
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Chapman: Let me go back a second.
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Chapman: I talk about this a lot.
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Chapman: I had a chance to talk at Brown University to university presidents.
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Chapman: I went up to Harvard in advance and I said, what is the purpose of education in our country?
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Chapman: And they said, well, the founding fathers felt we needed an informed citizenry to have a democracy.
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Chapman: I said, okay.
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Chapman: And I thought of them and I said, you know, then Henry Ford came along in the Industrial Revolution, one of the pioneers in the Industrial Revolution.
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Chapman: And he said to our universities, I need skills, I need accountants, I need engineers, you know, I need marketing people, I need lawyers.
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Chapman: And we’ll pay them well, you know, and give them good benefits.
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Chapman: And so the Industrial Revolution was seen as an extremely positive evolution of capitalism, which created communities, our education, you know, really benefited society.
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Chapman: And we’ve seen that all over the world.
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Chapman: But as I looked at it, it forgot one key thing.
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Chapman: It assumed that money would create happiness, okay?
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Chapman: That the economic benefits of a better paying job, you know, not Benny Starn Crops or, you know, animals, but people came off the farms in China and America, went into jobs where they were paid better with good benefits, that we would have the society we all dreamed of with economic prosperity, which would lead to human prosperity.
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Chapman: But unfortunately, a century later, we have the most prosperous economy driven by the Industrial Revolution, and we have the highest level of depression, anxiety and suicide we’ve ever had.
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Chapman: Why?
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Chapman: Because we thought in this Judeo-Christian mortality that success was related to money, wealth, and education.
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Chapman: And education created success because the better your education, the better the job, the more the money you make.
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Chapman: And so it began with a false assumption that money would create happiness.
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Chapman: And we attribute the benefit of the Industrial Revolution to the wealth created in the advancement of societies, to more civilized societies.
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Chapman: But when great pioneers like Henry Ford came along, they thought that paying people well with good benefits was the barter that they had with humanity that would benefit it.
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Chapman: But Henry Ford did not say to our universities, as we gather together in these larger and larger organizations, we need to make sure we have leaders who see people as their purpose.
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Chapman: And unfortunately, it was seen as money is the purpose to create economic wealth.
00:07:06.128 –> 00:07:07.988
Chapman: So that’s where it went wrong.
00:07:07.988 –> 00:07:11.048
Chapman: We thought money would create happiness.
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Chapman: And logically, with better health care, with better standards of living, it would.
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Chapman: But we didn’t teach our business leaders to care.
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Chapman: We taught them to use people to achieve financial success.
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Chapman: Okay.
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Chapman: And that has driven businesses in my entire career.
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Chapman: That has driven business is organic growth, share price improvement, market share.
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Chapman: And we again, we thought by paying people well with good benefits, we had a good trade off in society.
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Chapman: And that’s the problem.
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Chapman: Nobody was taught to care about people.
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Chapman: They were taught to care about creating financial wealth that they thought would create happiness.
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Chapman: That was where the link failed.
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Roddy: Got it.
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Roddy: Like almost the attitude of, hey, I’m paying them every two weeks, and it’s a good wage.
00:08:14.268 –> 00:08:15.648
Roddy: I can use them and do whatever I want.
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Roddy: Like run them into the ground and as long as they’re getting that money for it, that’s a fair trade.
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Chapman: Yeah.
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Chapman: So Jim, in my education, I have an accounting degree and an MBA from Michigan.
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Chapman: I went to Pricewaterhouse, then I’ve run a manufacturing company for several decades.
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Chapman: The lens through which I saw people through my education and then my experience in the world, I saw people as functions, functions for my success.
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Chapman: I needed them to be successful.
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Chapman: I was a nice guy, we had a nice company, but I saw people and I introduced them as engineers, accountants, etc.
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Chapman: That’s the way I was taught.
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Chapman: I was never taught that the way I would run Barry-Wehmiller would affect people’s marriage, their health, and their relationship with the children.
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Chapman: But when we began to realize that we needed to transform managers and leaders to truly care about people and we started teaching at our university, how to become a leader, not a manager, this astounded me, 95% of the feedback we got is how to change their marriage and their relationship with their children.
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Chapman: So I realized that business could be the most powerful force for good in the world if we had leaders who had the skills and courage to care.
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Chapman: And the challenge is that when COVID was an issue, it was highly contagious, okay?
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Chapman: The good news about caring is even more contagious than COVID.
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Chapman: What we have found, we did not know this, what we have found is when people feel cared for, it releases in them the capacity to care for others.
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Chapman: It’s hard to care for others when you don’t feel cared for yourself.
00:10:06.988 –> 00:10:09.548
Chapman: And Tom Friedman nailed it into your audience.
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Chapman: I think it’s a perfect way to see it.
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Chapman: We don’t, more than a poverty of money in this world, we have a poverty of dignity.
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Chapman: And when people don’t feel cared for, they feel used, it creates a sense of humiliation.
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Chapman: And when they feel humiliated, you’ll see anger and unrest like you’ve never seen before.
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Chapman: What are we seeing in our society, in this prosperous economic society?
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Chapman: So the Industrial Revolution forgot one thing, the Human Revolution.
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Chapman: Yes.
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Chapman: We needed to see people.
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Chapman: I was interviewed by Washington University Organizational Development Professors a few years ago.
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Chapman: And after an hour and a half interview, they said, you’re the first CEO we have ever interviewed that never talked about your product.
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Chapman: And I paused them and I said, I’ve been talking about our product for the last hour and a half, it’s our people.
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Chapman: I won’t go to my grave proud of the machinery we build.
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Chapman: I’ll go to my grave proud of the people who did that.
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Chapman: It caught them completely off guard because we define our focus on customers, our focus on profitability, and we take the people that we have the privilege of leading as functions for our organizational goals.
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Chapman: And this is not, remember, I speak in every part of society.
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Chapman: I see it in nonprofits, I see it in the military, I see it in government, I see it in health care, I see it in business.
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Chapman: We don’t have leaders.
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Chapman: We have good Christian people with good intentions, but they were never taught to care.
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Chapman: They were taught to use people to achieve and rewarded.
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Chapman: By using people to advance the purpose of the order, not caring for people.
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Roddy: Yes.
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Roddy: Thank you for that.
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Roddy: One thing that was very formative for me in my management leadership career, I used to work for a publishing company, about 100 employees, and they went to do their first ever training session for managers.
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Roddy: Because I think a lot of the sales reps especially felt like they were being more manipulated than they were actually had a partnership with their manager.
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Roddy: We’re supposed to start the training at 9 a.m.
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Roddy: We’re all waiting out of the hallway, the owner’s in there with the folks who were leading it, and he didn’t start it for 20 minutes.
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Roddy: Then finally, we get in there and the owner starts off big in all caps written on the market board, actually care.
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Roddy: He said, all these things, these tactics we’re going to treat you are just going to be tricks and manipulative tools if you don’t actually care.
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Roddy: It starts there and if you don’t actually care, don’t be a manager.
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Roddy: Don’t be a leader, that’s not what we’re looking for.
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Roddy: Boy, did that really change the trajectory of how our managers worked with employees.
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Roddy: Then you started seeing managers years later getting feedback to your point of, hey, he not only makes me a better salesperson, this manager makes me a better person, makes me a better husband, makes me a better father, a better teammate.
00:12:53.708 –> 00:13:00.548
Roddy: You’re like, wow, that is so much more meaningful than did we hit our Q2 numbers, but it all roots back and like I said, that’s always burned into my brain.
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Roddy: All caps actually care upon that whiteboard.
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Roddy: That sounds like that’s what you’re saying.
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Chapman: That’s exactly what we’re saying.
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Chapman: But remember when Bernie Sanders was a possible presidential candidate in the Democratic Party, he talked a lot about socialism and surveys show that young people were actually interested in socialism.
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Chapman: It was interesting to stand back and look at this disconnect between Karen because we have never learned to care.
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Chapman: The CEO Roundtable, America’s top CEOs, some really wonderful gentlemen, good Christian, good family man, came out with a PR statement to defend free enterprise.
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Chapman: They said in this full page Wall Street Journal article, we need to think about more than just the shareholders.
00:13:56.308 –> 00:13:58.028
Chapman: That was the essence of the message.
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Chapman: Now, A, it’s sad they needed to say that.
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Roddy: Right.
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Chapman: Okay.
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Chapman: And B, I know some of these gentlemen, they have no idea how to care.
00:14:08.148 –> 00:14:12.608
Chapman: What we have learned is you cannot ask people to care.
00:14:12.608 –> 00:14:15.568
Chapman: You can’t ask people to speak Chinese or German.
00:14:15.568 –> 00:14:17.128
Chapman: You have to teach them how.
00:14:17.128 –> 00:14:18.628
Chapman: Caring is a skill.
00:14:18.628 –> 00:14:20.028
Chapman: It’s a language.
00:14:20.028 –> 00:14:25.308
Chapman: And so in our university, that’s in hindsight, that’s what we unintentionally did.
00:14:26.268 –> 00:14:28.988
Chapman: So again, you use the word manager.
00:14:28.988 –> 00:14:39.108
Chapman: To me, that should be struck from the American language because the word manager means, in my view, the manipulation of others for your success.
00:14:39.108 –> 00:14:41.588
Chapman: Leadership is the stewardship of the lives.
00:14:41.588 –> 00:14:43.108
Chapman: You have the privilege of leading.
00:14:43.108 –> 00:14:46.948
Chapman: Dramatically different lens created by leadership.
00:14:46.948 –> 00:14:50.508
Chapman: Again, we have bosses, supervisors, managers.
00:14:50.508 –> 00:14:56.228
Chapman: Who wants to be, I always said I took a management class, got a management degree, and I got a job in management.
00:14:56.288 –> 00:14:59.708
Chapman: I thought my job was to manage people.
00:14:59.708 –> 00:15:02.508
Chapman: Name anybody in your life you can manage.
00:15:02.508 –> 00:15:04.868
Chapman: Name anybody in your life that wants to be managed.
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Chapman: We need mentors, coaches, leaders, people who see people as their purpose.
00:15:10.928 –> 00:15:15.328
Chapman: But I want to go back to your statement here.
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Chapman: We describe it as people, purpose, and performance.
00:15:20.368 –> 00:15:22.028
Chapman: The first word is people.
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Chapman: Our fundamental responsibility to the people, we have the privilege of leading.
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Chapman: That gives them a sense of safety, a sense of future so they can plan their lives, they can count on the organization to provide for their future.
00:15:39.268 –> 00:15:42.468
Chapman: Then we’ve got a purpose that inspires them.
00:15:42.468 –> 00:15:49.028
Chapman: We want to inspire people, not just manage people, because people will share their gifts with you when they feel inspired.
00:15:50.228 –> 00:15:59.548
Chapman: Then performance, if we’ve got to create value, if we don’t create value, we put at risk our stewardship of the people whose lives.
00:15:59.548 –> 00:16:07.528
Chapman: If our investors lose confidence in us, we compromise our ability to be good stewards of people’s lives.
00:16:07.708 –> 00:16:11.508
Chapman: It’s again, people, purpose and performance.
00:16:11.508 –> 00:16:23.748
Chapman: Starts with our focus on people, around a purpose that inspires them, and we have to create value, human and economic value to have the right to stay in existence as an organization.
00:16:23.748 –> 00:16:28.248
Chapman: I always say, some people say it’s about getting the right people on the bus.
00:16:28.248 –> 00:16:43.788
Chapman: I say it’s about building a safe bus, which is your business model, and having leaders who know how to drive that bus and know where they’re going, and then anybody you invite on that bus is going to be fine because you built a safe bus and you have leaders who know how to drive it safely.
00:16:44.448 –> 00:16:51.828
Chapman: So it’s incredibly important, both your business model, because if your business model fails, you’re going to hurt people.
00:16:53.428 –> 00:16:57.608
Chapman: Again, it’s not just about caring for people.
00:16:57.608 –> 00:17:06.288
Chapman: Part of the way you care for them as a parent, is you provide income to educate and house your family.
00:17:06.288 –> 00:17:16.908
Chapman: Part of business is you’ve got to have a business that gives people a chance to create value and feel safe and valued and go home at night.
00:17:16.908 –> 00:17:27.108
Chapman: Again, nobody ever told me that the way I would run Barry-Wehmiller would affect people’s health, people’s marriage and people’s relationship with their children.
00:17:27.108 –> 00:17:30.248
Chapman: But that is 95% of the feedback we get.
00:17:30.248 –> 00:17:37.608
Chapman: And that is the power that any organization can be, as opposed to the organizational objectives.
00:17:37.848 –> 00:17:40.848
Chapman: Our people are our purpose.
00:17:40.848 –> 00:17:45.228
Chapman: Making sure that those people in our care go home at night feeling valued.
00:17:45.228 –> 00:17:48.928
Chapman: We got to have a good business model that creates value and people need to relate to it.
00:17:48.928 –> 00:17:50.548
Chapman: Does that make sense?
00:17:50.548 –> 00:17:51.128
Roddy: Absolutely.
00:17:51.128 –> 00:18:03.128
Roddy: And it ties in the visual that I’ll try to get managers out of my vernacular here, but that we would teach leaders, say, it’s not that you’re on the other side of the table working against the person.
00:18:03.128 –> 00:18:11.628
Roddy: They have to feel like you are sitting on the same side of the table with them and you’re figuring the issues out together to benefit the organization and to benefit them.
00:18:11.628 –> 00:18:13.448
Roddy: It’s not either or, right?
00:18:13.448 –> 00:18:15.428
Roddy: It’s got to be for both.
00:18:15.428 –> 00:18:18.288
Roddy: So I want to talk about one other passage in your book as well.
00:18:18.288 –> 00:18:22.008
Roddy: You say, it’s imperative we reconnect markets and morals.
00:18:22.008 –> 00:18:25.408
Roddy: And you said people and purpose ahead of profits is the first one.
00:18:25.408 –> 00:18:28.048
Roddy: Then the primacy of human flourishing overall.
00:18:28.048 –> 00:18:32.808
Roddy: Then the one I want you to expand on, it says morality ahead of money.
00:18:33.048 –> 00:18:36.308
Roddy: And so I’m thinking that last point might give our audience some pause.
00:18:36.788 –> 00:18:37.428
Roddy: Do you have people?
00:18:37.428 –> 00:18:38.448
Roddy: You know, and all that stuff.
00:18:38.448 –> 00:18:41.308
Roddy: But boy, morality ahead of money.
00:18:41.308 –> 00:18:50.208
Roddy: Can you talk about how placing morality ahead of money has paid off for you, for your people, for your community?
00:18:51.268 –> 00:18:58.568
Chapman: Well, I don’t want to use the word paid off for me because that would imply that I did it for my benefit.
00:18:58.848 –> 00:19:00.128
Roddy: Okay.
00:19:00.128 –> 00:19:07.368
Chapman: I would say to you, and it’s not that people are more important than profit.
00:19:07.368 –> 00:19:12.668
Chapman: The way we express it is creating economic and human value in harmony.
00:19:12.668 –> 00:19:13.168
Roddy: Okay.
00:19:13.168 –> 00:19:14.628
Chapman: In harmony.
00:19:14.628 –> 00:19:14.968
Chapman: Okay.
00:19:14.968 –> 00:19:17.168
Chapman: Not one at the expense of the other.
00:19:17.168 –> 00:19:18.228
Chapman: Okay.
00:19:18.228 –> 00:19:24.788
Chapman: And so I would say to you that, again, it depends upon how you look.
00:19:24.788 –> 00:19:36.688
Chapman: Again, I know a lot of wonderful people who in business, you know, don’t know how to embrace their faith, their family values and business.
00:19:36.928 –> 00:19:44.248
Chapman: And, you know, I use the statement Simon Sinek and I say, parenting and leadership is identical.
00:19:44.248 –> 00:19:45.048
Chapman: What is parenting?
00:19:45.048 –> 00:19:53.248
Chapman: The stewardship of these precious young lives that come into our family through birth, adoption, second marriage, that we all take incredibly seriously.
00:19:53.248 –> 00:19:54.988
Chapman: What is leadership?
00:19:54.988 –> 00:20:01.868
Chapman: The stewardship of these precious people who walk in our building every day, who simply want to know they matter.
00:20:01.868 –> 00:20:05.908
Chapman: OK, that is a view I was I never heard.
00:20:05.908 –> 00:20:07.548
Chapman: I was never taught.
00:20:07.548 –> 00:20:09.008
Chapman: I was never rewarded for.
00:20:09.008 –> 00:20:11.508
Chapman: And I guarantee you, boards don’t talk about that.
00:20:11.508 –> 00:20:14.348
Chapman: OK, because it’s not the language of business.
00:20:14.348 –> 00:20:17.228
Chapman: The language of business is numeric.
00:20:17.228 –> 00:20:22.688
Chapman: OK, and our goal is is is for business to be a pound.
00:20:22.848 –> 00:20:27.668
Chapman: Remember, we have people in our care for 40 hours a week.
00:20:27.668 –> 00:20:34.508
Chapman: We will dramatically impact their health and the way they go home at night feeling about themselves.
00:20:34.508 –> 00:20:39.328
Chapman: And when they go home at night feeling good about themselves, they’re better spouses, they’re better parents.
00:20:39.728 –> 00:20:50.708
Chapman: And we could heal this poverty of dignity we’re feeling in our country because we have managers and bosses and supervisors who use people to achieve organizational goals.
00:20:51.348 –> 00:20:53.688
Chapman: That’s where the immorality begins.
00:20:53.688 –> 00:20:55.508
Chapman: It’s not that these aren’t good people.
00:20:55.508 –> 00:21:01.508
Chapman: They were never taught, never rewarded, never advanced in their career because they were good stewards of people.
00:21:01.508 –> 00:21:05.948
Chapman: They achieved results and they were promoted because they achieved results.
00:21:05.948 –> 00:21:10.708
Chapman: Again, not bad people, but the foundation of the Industrial Revolution.
00:21:10.708 –> 00:21:15.628
Chapman: We thought by creating better paying jobs with better benefits, we were benefiting society.
00:21:15.628 –> 00:21:17.188
Chapman: Okay, nice.
00:21:17.188 –> 00:21:18.868
Chapman: But how did you validate their worth?
00:21:21.328 –> 00:21:22.408
Chapman: By the way, we paid them?
00:21:22.408 –> 00:21:23.488
Roddy: Nope.
00:21:23.488 –> 00:21:25.508
Chapman: By the way, you treated them.
00:21:25.508 –> 00:21:26.988
Chapman: When were unions formed?
00:21:26.988 –> 00:21:32.748
Chapman: In the very early days because we use people.
00:21:32.748 –> 00:21:34.788
Chapman: I’ll put on a hubcap every 15 seconds.
00:21:34.788 –> 00:21:38.888
Chapman: Now, I want you to do it in 13 seconds and I’ll find an automation system.
00:21:38.888 –> 00:21:42.208
Chapman: It was never about human dignity or human worth.
00:21:42.208 –> 00:21:43.908
Chapman: It was about economic.
00:21:43.908 –> 00:21:46.888
Chapman: That’s where the Industrial Revolution and business failed.
00:21:48.308 –> 00:21:54.948
Chapman: It didn’t see the potential to validate the worth of every individual for them to become who they’re intended to be.
00:21:54.948 –> 00:22:04.708
Chapman: Whether that was whatever it was, but they felt valued and they went home at night and we could heal a lot of this brokenness we feel in the world.
00:22:04.748 –> 00:22:05.328
Roddy: Thank you for that.
00:22:05.708 –> 00:22:12.808
Roddy: Let me ask, I’ll get to some of the things that our leaders in our organization have to deal with on a regular basis.
00:22:13.888 –> 00:22:20.388
Roddy: Talking to an employee who isn’t performing up to expectations, what is the way to value them?
00:22:20.388 –> 00:22:26.168
Roddy: What’s the moral way to manage them through the process of what could be called get good or get gone?
00:22:26.168 –> 00:22:38.908
Roddy: What is the way to value them while at the same time, you’ve got a business to run in terms of, it can’t just be like, hey, you’re a nice person, I value, but you’re not up to speed and we’re not delivering the product.
00:22:39.388 –> 00:22:42.328
Roddy: What is the way to do that from your perspective, Bob?
00:22:42.328 –> 00:22:48.768
Chapman: Well, first of all, it’s appalling to think get good or get gone.
00:22:48.768 –> 00:22:50.648
Chapman: Would you say that to your kids?
00:22:50.648 –> 00:22:51.528
Roddy: No.
00:22:51.528 –> 00:22:52.428
Roddy: Okay.
00:22:52.428 –> 00:22:55.728
Chapman: Why would you say that to somebody else’s kids?
00:22:55.728 –> 00:22:56.748
Chapman: Okay.
00:22:56.748 –> 00:23:00.288
Chapman: So let me start with that is an immoral way to treat people.
00:23:00.288 –> 00:23:02.748
Chapman: Get them to go on.
00:23:02.748 –> 00:23:11.268
Chapman: So what you’ve asked, I get is either the top one or two questions I get from, whether it’s a church group or a non-profit or health care.
00:23:11.268 –> 00:23:15.208
Chapman: Basically, you’re saying, what do you do about the people that don’t get it?
00:23:15.208 –> 00:23:20.648
Chapman: I say, treat them like you would like your son or daughter treated if they didn’t get it.
00:23:20.648 –> 00:23:21.948
Chapman: They say, well, that would be different.
00:23:21.948 –> 00:23:24.108
Chapman: I say, why is it different?
00:23:24.108 –> 00:23:25.708
Chapman: That’s somebody’s son you’re talking to.
00:23:27.548 –> 00:23:34.928
Chapman: The standard of care is treat people no less than you would want your son or daughter to be treated.
00:23:37.308 –> 00:23:42.968
Chapman: In parenting, we’re taught it’s called hard love.
00:23:42.968 –> 00:23:57.048
Chapman: Sometimes, the best thing you can do with an individual who needs to hear the impact they’re making on others and the need to improvement is consequences.
00:23:57.048 –> 00:24:14.848
Chapman: We’re taught in raising kids, consequences thoughtfully developed, the appropriate consequence is a way to help kids feel the implications of doing things wrong, the consequences.
00:24:14.848 –> 00:24:21.308
Chapman: I would say to you that we just bring hard love, which means doing the right thing for the person.
00:24:21.308 –> 00:24:32.608
Chapman: Sometimes when somebody is, and I don’t like to use the word not performing to our expectations is quite often.
00:24:32.608 –> 00:24:34.948
Chapman: Remember, most people don’t feel valued.
00:24:34.948 –> 00:24:39.768
Chapman: Remember, 65% of all people would give up a salary in case they could fire their boss.
00:24:39.768 –> 00:24:45.268
Chapman: So why would people perform in an environment where they’re abused, not respected?
00:24:45.268 –> 00:24:48.668
Chapman: As one person said, I got 10 things right and I never heard a word.
00:24:48.668 –> 00:24:50.708
Chapman: I got one thing wrong, got my answer right.
00:24:50.708 –> 00:24:51.508
Roddy: Yes.
00:24:51.508 –> 00:24:57.168
Chapman: So why would people share their gifts with you fully in an environment where they don’t feel valued?
00:24:57.808 –> 00:25:08.568
Chapman: And so I would say to you, is that person not performing because they’re not capable or is it because your leadership style does not inspire them to share their gifts with you?
00:25:08.568 –> 00:25:10.008
Chapman: So it’s a two-way street.
00:25:10.008 –> 00:25:16.048
Chapman: It’s not just looking at the people that don’t perform, okay, any more than raising kids.
00:25:16.168 –> 00:25:20.108
Chapman: How do we deal with kids that we know are not realizing the potential?
00:25:20.108 –> 00:25:22.028
Chapman: We inspire them, okay?
00:25:22.028 –> 00:25:28.668
Chapman: But sometimes consequences are the right thing to do to help them realize the implication of their behavior.
00:25:28.668 –> 00:25:35.228
Chapman: So my standard of care is treat them no less than you would want your son or daughter treated.
00:25:35.228 –> 00:25:36.208
Roddy: Yeah, thank you for that.
00:25:36.208 –> 00:25:40.928
Roddy: And so let me ask this and I’m going to I’m running a lot of this through my own personal lens, my personal experience.
00:25:40.928 –> 00:25:52.128
Roddy: When I first started in my professional, you know, management leadership career is at the same time I was coaching my little brother and actually right before in fifth and sixth grade basketball.
00:25:52.128 –> 00:26:01.788
Roddy: And boy, the parallels between those were super helpful for me because you would see a coach like I’m not a yeller, screamer, berater, anything like that.
00:26:01.788 –> 00:26:04.648
Roddy: I would make sure the kids have fun and you would make sure you teach them.
00:26:04.648 –> 00:26:07.348
Roddy: And if a kid screws up, you’re like, well, they probably don’t know how to do it.
00:26:07.348 –> 00:26:08.448
Roddy: They need more practice, right?
00:26:08.448 –> 00:26:10.348
Roddy: Let’s just go emphasize on the practice.
00:26:10.348 –> 00:26:12.688
Roddy: You’d see other people flipping out and getting mad at them.
00:26:12.748 –> 00:26:15.988
Roddy: And I’m like, man, what a parallel that is to the workplace, right?
00:26:15.988 –> 00:26:17.748
Roddy: People aren’t bringing good ideas.
00:26:17.748 –> 00:26:19.268
Roddy: Well, because you’re screaming at them, right?
00:26:19.268 –> 00:26:22.248
Roddy: If they do something that doesn’t exactly align with what you do.
00:26:22.248 –> 00:26:23.748
Roddy: So I guess, can you talk about that?
00:26:23.748 –> 00:26:24.868
Roddy: Do you see more parallel?
00:26:24.868 –> 00:26:33.348
Roddy: Again, I was, you know, I talked with one of my managers about that learning experience and they’re like, do not bring up coaching kids to managing people.
00:26:33.348 –> 00:26:34.628
Roddy: They’re not the same thing.
00:26:34.628 –> 00:26:35.808
Roddy: People will feel insulted.
00:26:35.808 –> 00:26:38.808
Roddy: I’m like, it’s actually been like instructive for me personally.
00:26:38.948 –> 00:26:45.448
Roddy: So I guess, can you talk about that in terms of, you know, does that build upon what you said or am I misunderstanding?
00:26:45.648 –> 00:26:54.208
Chapman: In the early days of this journey, we compared John Wooden of UCLA with Bobby Knight of Indiana.
00:26:54.208 –> 00:26:54.748
Roddy: Okay.
00:26:54.748 –> 00:26:58.988
Chapman: And Bobby, both winning coaches, okay?
00:26:58.988 –> 00:27:09.148
Chapman: But Bobby Knight would run up and down screaming at the players, throwing a chair, you know, and constantly screaming and yelling.
00:27:09.148 –> 00:27:15.108
Chapman: And John Wooden would sit down on the bench with his program rolled up and let his players play.
00:27:15.108 –> 00:27:15.468
Chapman: Okay.
00:27:16.508 –> 00:27:18.188
Chapman: Which team would you rather play on?
00:27:18.188 –> 00:27:19.328
Roddy: Okay.
00:27:19.328 –> 00:27:24.168
Chapman: And John Wooden was the most winning coach in college basketball.
00:27:24.168 –> 00:27:28.468
Chapman: And that reminds me of another quick story.
00:27:28.468 –> 00:27:34.168
Chapman: A gentleman named Steve Jones contacted our operation in Green Bay, Wisconsin.
00:27:34.248 –> 00:27:37.148
Chapman: He was a high school football coach.
00:27:37.148 –> 00:27:39.428
Chapman: And he said, I read Mr.
00:27:39.428 –> 00:27:40.028
Chapman: Chapman’s book.
00:27:40.028 –> 00:27:40.788
Chapman: I’d love to read them.
00:27:40.788 –> 00:27:45.728
Chapman: So I said, well, one day when he’s visiting Green Bay, we’ll let you know and you can come and visit him.
00:27:45.728 –> 00:27:51.108
Chapman: So I sat down with Steve Jones and we talked about, he talked about how much the book meant to him.
00:27:51.108 –> 00:27:54.368
Chapman: Again, a high school football coach in Kimberly, Wisconsin.
00:27:54.368 –> 00:28:03.548
Chapman: And I said to him, I said, well, you know, Steve, the only problem I’ve got with sports is we have winners and we have losers.
00:28:05.068 –> 00:28:10.088
Chapman: How do you coach, in this case, high school football, young men about winning and losing?
00:28:10.088 –> 00:28:13.608
Chapman: And he said something to me I will never forget.
00:28:13.608 –> 00:28:16.608
Chapman: He said, we don’t talk about winning and losing.
00:28:16.608 –> 00:28:21.248
Chapman: We talk about play your position well for your fellow team member.
00:28:21.248 –> 00:28:26.808
Chapman: And they won 72 games in a row and five out of six state championships.
00:28:26.808 –> 00:28:39.328
Chapman: I always thought when I came to the business, that you played your position well for your career, for your advancement, for your salary improvement, for your advance.
00:28:39.328 –> 00:28:51.268
Chapman: It never occurred to me to look at Bill or Mary either side of me and say, I want to make sure that I do my position well so that Bill and Mary have a future too.
00:28:51.268 –> 00:28:52.968
Chapman: And that was powerful.
00:28:52.968 –> 00:28:57.688
Chapman: We actually had Steve record how he talked to these high school kids and we showed it to our leadership team.
00:28:58.308 –> 00:29:13.828
Chapman: If everybody would step into their role in our company and felt inspired to share their gifts fully so that their fellow colleagues had a future, it would be the ideal organization of vibrancy.
00:29:13.828 –> 00:29:19.288
Chapman: So I would say to you, coaching and leadership is identical, okay?
00:29:19.348 –> 00:29:20.468
Chapman: It’s identical.
00:29:22.008 –> 00:29:30.888
Chapman: And my son, Kyle, was a star basketball player, football player and baseball player in high school, and big three-point shooter.
00:29:30.888 –> 00:29:36.048
Chapman: And he was thinking about his career and I said, Kyle, you know, business and sports are just alike.
00:29:36.048 –> 00:29:42.268
Chapman: You got offense, you got defense, you got play patterns, and you got a scoreboard.
00:29:42.348 –> 00:29:44.088
Chapman: You just don’t get hurt as much.
00:29:45.048 –> 00:29:55.888
Chapman: And I would say to you that I use the analogy of sports, there’s no difference in coaching a football team and running a business organization.
00:29:55.888 –> 00:30:04.688
Chapman: You have players in positions, you have play patterns, you understand how the other teams game, so you can play your game against their game.
00:30:05.828 –> 00:30:09.788
Chapman: And you can see they have scouts looking at seeing what’s happening and adjusting your game.
00:30:09.788 –> 00:30:11.368
Chapman: That is the same as business.
00:30:11.368 –> 00:30:12.848
Chapman: It’s identical.
00:30:12.848 –> 00:30:15.368
Chapman: And coaches is what people want.
00:30:15.368 –> 00:30:20.188
Chapman: They don’t want bosses, supervisors, you know, managers, foremen.
00:30:20.188 –> 00:30:24.088
Chapman: They want somebody that inspires them and cares for them.
00:30:24.088 –> 00:30:24.668
Roddy: Yes.
00:30:24.668 –> 00:30:26.388
Roddy: And so a couple of things.
00:30:26.388 –> 00:30:29.048
Roddy: First, John Wooden, my favorite coach of all time.
00:30:29.048 –> 00:30:32.268
Roddy: I have in the bookshelf behind me many, many Wooden books.
00:30:32.268 –> 00:30:33.888
Roddy: I have no Bobby Knight books.
00:30:33.888 –> 00:30:35.108
Roddy: I want to point that out.
00:30:35.108 –> 00:30:39.868
Roddy: And Wooden would go out of his way to never talk about winning.
00:30:39.868 –> 00:30:42.788
Roddy: He would always talk about be the best you can be.
00:30:42.788 –> 00:30:44.528
Roddy: Here’s the best way to put on your socks.
00:30:44.528 –> 00:30:46.248
Roddy: Here’s the best way to do these things.
00:30:46.608 –> 00:30:50.188
Roddy: And sure enough, that led to, like you said, multiple national championships.
00:30:50.188 –> 00:30:54.408
Roddy: I guess I’ll also share with you, just to emphasize your point about coaching and leadership.
00:30:54.408 –> 00:30:59.748
Roddy: So I was a walk-on for college basketball for a school in Erie, Pennsylvania.
00:30:59.748 –> 00:31:02.508
Roddy: I would still go to their games.
00:31:02.508 –> 00:31:10.888
Roddy: I did broadcasting for a while, but after broadcasting, I would always sit right behind the other team’s bench just to observe how their coaches interacted with their players.
00:31:10.888 –> 00:31:14.108
Roddy: Ninety percent of them were very adversarial.
00:31:14.108 –> 00:31:18.188
Roddy: Screaming, yelling, yanking them out of the game, just no partnership whatsoever.
00:31:18.188 –> 00:31:22.688
Roddy: But man, the best coaches were the one who were very much deliberative.
00:31:22.688 –> 00:31:24.008
Roddy: Let’s bring somebody out of a game.
00:31:24.008 –> 00:31:26.288
Roddy: Let’s talk to them, teach them.
00:31:26.288 –> 00:31:32.728
Roddy: It’s not that they never raised their voice, but they were clearly in more of the coaching, teaching mode than they were the berating mode.
00:31:32.908 –> 00:31:36.508
Roddy: Again, I know that’s not like scientific or anything, but I’m telling you it’s really, really evident.
00:31:36.508 –> 00:31:37.828
Roddy: What’s the difference between business?
00:31:37.848 –> 00:31:38.328
Roddy: I know it.
00:31:38.368 –> 00:31:41.028
Chapman: People I see in business scream and berate.
00:31:41.048 –> 00:31:47.248
Chapman: Remember, 88 percent of all people feel they work for a different organization that does not care about them.
00:31:47.968 –> 00:31:53.608
Chapman: There’s a 20 percent increase in heart attacks on Monday mornings when people have to go back to work.
00:31:53.608 –> 00:31:57.128
Chapman: We have a society where we live in, it’s called TGIF.
00:31:57.128 –> 00:31:58.308
Chapman: Thank God it’s Friday.
00:31:58.308 –> 00:32:01.348
Chapman: Get the hell out of this place and kill the pain with a beer.
00:32:01.348 –> 00:32:06.088
Chapman: I imagine a day, as you’ll see, that we have TGIM.
00:32:06.088 –> 00:32:07.208
Chapman: Thank goodness it’s Monday.
00:32:07.208 –> 00:32:11.268
Chapman: Get away from the kids, the spouse, and be with a group of people I enjoy playing the sport with.
00:32:12.008 –> 00:32:21.088
Chapman: There’s no difference in the ideal world between a coach and a leader or a mentor, somebody who inspires us.
00:32:21.088 –> 00:32:22.408
Chapman: But we got to have play patterns.
00:32:22.408 –> 00:32:24.028
Chapman: It’s not just inspiration.
00:32:24.448 –> 00:32:28.948
Chapman: If you just inspire, but you got to have play patterns, you got to know how to play against your competition.
00:32:30.248 –> 00:32:34.868
Chapman: Again, it’s about looking for the goodness in the people and recognizing.
00:32:35.008 –> 00:32:53.208
Chapman: Remember, the three key things we teach that move you from management to leadership, is we teach empathetic listening, how to listen without judgment, to validate the worth of others, which is the greatest of all human skills at home, at work, in your community.
00:32:53.208 –> 00:32:58.748
Chapman: Then we teach recognition and celebration, which came from Cynthia and my experience raising six kids.
00:32:58.748 –> 00:33:06.888
Chapman: If you don’t spend five times more complimenting your kids on what they do right, it’s harder for them to deal with what they could do better.
00:33:07.968 –> 00:33:11.388
Chapman: I find adults are identical, but we don’t teach that.
00:33:11.388 –> 00:33:18.748
Chapman: We teach people, as you said, I got 10 things right and I didn’t hear a word and I got one thing wrong, I might ask you that.
00:33:18.748 –> 00:33:20.948
Chapman: Then we teach culture of service.
00:33:20.948 –> 00:33:28.188
Chapman: How do you move from a me-centric world to a we-centric world, where people think of others, not just themselves?
00:33:28.188 –> 00:33:30.248
Chapman: Those are the three things we teach.
00:33:30.248 –> 00:33:34.148
Chapman: Because again, you can’t ask people to be a leader.
00:33:34.148 –> 00:33:40.148
Chapman: You may work for somebody who’s a great leader, you may learn from them, but we don’t want leadership to be an accident.
00:33:40.148 –> 00:33:43.568
Chapman: You don’t want to hope that you got a good doctor.
00:33:44.728 –> 00:33:47.488
Chapman: You want to make sure he’s trained to be a good doctor.
00:33:47.808 –> 00:33:51.608
Chapman: You don’t want to hope you got a good pilot on the plane, you just stepped your foot on it.
00:33:51.608 –> 00:33:53.508
Chapman: You want to make sure they have the discipline.
00:33:53.508 –> 00:33:56.948
Chapman: So leadership is a privilege.
00:33:56.948 –> 00:33:59.508
Chapman: It is a sense of responsibility.
00:33:59.508 –> 00:34:04.188
Chapman: So allow people to come together, share their gifts, and go home at night feeling valued.
00:34:04.568 –> 00:34:19.308
Chapman: And we could heal this anxiety, depression, and suicidal behavior we have in this country that is built upon economic success is happiness, as opposed to caring for others, which is true success.
00:34:19.308 –> 00:34:19.748
Roddy: Yes.
00:34:19.748 –> 00:34:22.348
Roddy: And I have a couple more questions and a couple more quotes in the book.
00:34:22.348 –> 00:34:26.668
Roddy: But one thing I want to just share and maybe tie all these points together.
00:34:26.668 –> 00:34:35.848
Roddy: So talking about how to parallel with coaching, I worked on the hallway for a few years in a small office park from a psychotherapist.
00:34:35.848 –> 00:34:38.888
Roddy: So when I first talked to her, I’m like, I know nothing about psychotherapy.
00:34:38.888 –> 00:34:41.168
Roddy: She’s like, I know nothing about business whatsoever.
00:34:41.168 –> 00:34:52.688
Roddy: But the more that we talked, it was like our jobs were very similar in terms of we have people, we care about them, we’re learning about them, right?
00:34:52.688 –> 00:34:56.628
Roddy: We’re teaching them different, you know, the knowledge, the skills, things of that nature.
00:34:56.628 –> 00:35:03.408
Roddy: We’re putting our arm around them, guiding them, and our goal is to get them better so they can have better lives and improve their lives.
00:35:03.408 –> 00:35:11.488
Roddy: And so it was just funny, the more conversations we have with each other, we’re like, okay, we come at it from completely different angles, but it’s essentially the same thing.
00:35:11.488 –> 00:35:18.308
Roddy: So again, I still don’t think I know anything about psychotherapy, but it seems like there’s that same foundation, the same through line with it.
00:35:18.308 –> 00:35:28.028
Chapman: In my talks, I say that I talk quite often to CEOs of companies and I say, you’re all worried about the cost of health care, you are the problem.
00:35:28.048 –> 00:35:31.328
Chapman: 74% of all illnesses are chronic.
00:35:31.328 –> 00:35:36.568
Chapman: The biggest cause of chronic illness is stress, and the biggest cause of stress is work.
00:35:36.568 –> 00:35:56.468
Chapman: So we are basically destroying the health of our team members because we don’t know how to validate their worth, to reduce stress, which causes so many of the issues we face, the health issues we face, heart attacks, strokes, etc.
00:35:56.468 –> 00:36:04.568
Chapman: So again, we need the profession of that lady, the psychotherapist, because we have so much brokenness.
00:36:04.688 –> 00:36:06.608
Chapman: We are creating infinite demand.
00:36:06.608 –> 00:36:17.488
Chapman: And remember, the other thing I would say reminds me, we have a society where we celebrate people who write checks to charity.
00:36:19.448 –> 00:36:24.328
Chapman: What a wonderful family they just gave to the cancer society, the homeless, etc.
00:36:24.328 –> 00:36:28.428
Chapman: The greatest act of charity is not the checks you write.
00:36:28.428 –> 00:36:35.868
Chapman: The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading at home, at work and in your community.
00:36:35.868 –> 00:36:41.968
Chapman: We need the charities to fix the brokenness we are creating because we don’t know how to care for each other.
00:36:41.968 –> 00:36:42.708
Roddy: Yes.
00:36:42.708 –> 00:36:44.208
Roddy: Yes.
00:36:44.208 –> 00:36:45.588
Roddy: Bob, one more question for you.
00:36:45.588 –> 00:36:47.028
Roddy: Thanks so much for your time today.
00:36:47.788 –> 00:36:52.988
Roddy: You end this section about an ethical foundation for capitalism in your book on a positive note.
00:36:52.988 –> 00:36:57.648
Roddy: We’re going to make sure we end this podcast on a positive note and what business leaders can do.
00:36:57.648 –> 00:37:05.648
Roddy: The quote says, business can be the primary vehicle for building a better world, if we appropriately respect and care for people.
00:37:05.648 –> 00:37:14.608
Roddy: Business is a powerful instrument that we must use to serve the noble cause of greater human and planetary flourishing.
00:37:14.888 –> 00:37:25.588
Roddy: I guess, do you see the role of a leader to be not just an evangelist for their brand, but also for high character behavior and high character treatment of people?
00:37:26.608 –> 00:37:28.688
Chapman: Well, I’d flip it.
00:37:28.688 –> 00:37:33.888
Chapman: The primary responsibility of a leader is the care for the people that have the privilege of leading.
00:37:33.888 –> 00:37:41.228
Chapman: Again, I doubt that many of the people listening to your podcasts were told when they had a chance to move into a leadership position.
00:37:41.408 –> 00:37:43.008
Chapman: Do you understand?
00:37:43.008 –> 00:37:49.928
Chapman: We’re giving you an opportunity to go from being part of the accounting department to leading the accounting department.
00:37:49.928 –> 00:37:56.428
Chapman: Do you understand that the way you embrace this will profoundly affect the health and the family life of the people?
00:37:56.428 –> 00:38:02.008
Chapman: They say, well, because we don’t train people to do that.
00:38:02.008 –> 00:38:09.248
Chapman: So the chance for people to heal and the power of business, we use the word business.
00:38:10.088 –> 00:38:16.388
Chapman: But again, I’m talking about hospitals, I’m talking about nonprofits, I’m talking about military.
00:38:16.388 –> 00:38:26.448
Chapman: I speak in every part of society around the world, and the same issue is prevalent and we don’t know how to care for each other.
00:38:27.148 –> 00:38:32.468
Chapman: And then we have all these charities to fix the damage we do by using people.
00:38:32.528 –> 00:38:43.708
Chapman: Okay, and so, again, it astounds me in this journey that we basically were blessed with this vision of seeing people as our purpose, you know?
00:38:43.708 –> 00:38:48.748
Chapman: And now we need a good business model to be good to our people and we need leaders.
00:38:48.748 –> 00:39:06.928
Chapman: So again, I want your listeners to know that we are now, we saw a lot of really good family men, good Christians, who were, I’ll call it unintentionally hurting the very people that they had the privilege of leading.
00:39:06.928 –> 00:39:10.328
Chapman: And we said, why do we need to fix adults?
00:39:10.328 –> 00:39:20.828
Chapman: Because our education system is around academic achievement, you know, geography, math, science, you know, marketing, business law, accounting, et cetera.
00:39:20.828 –> 00:39:23.828
Chapman: But we’re not giving people human skills.
00:39:23.828 –> 00:39:34.288
Chapman: And we wonder why we see what we see in terms of the behavior of companies, the layoff people, to send people home, you know, feeling unvalued.
00:39:34.288 –> 00:39:35.928
Chapman: Because they were never taught to that.
00:39:35.928 –> 00:39:46.628
Chapman: They were taught basic academic skills without the compatible human skills to blend the two together to be good leaders.
00:39:46.628 –> 00:40:01.668
Chapman: So we will not heal the society until our education system embraces its role in creating this broken model of economic achievement without human achievement.
00:40:01.668 –> 00:40:06.948
Chapman: So we are very focused on now working with K-12 education.
00:40:06.948 –> 00:40:23.688
Chapman: So that by the time kids will leave our education, you know, primary education system graduated at 18, they are ready to go into society and live with diversity, would live with unique people from around the world.
00:40:23.688 –> 00:40:24.228
Chapman: Okay.
00:40:24.228 –> 00:40:26.688
Chapman: Because we understand how to live together.
00:40:26.688 –> 00:40:30.168
Chapman: Those are human skills that we found are teachable.
00:40:30.168 –> 00:40:36.968
Chapman: And so that’s a key that I want until we change education, it’s kind of like putting band-aids on cancer.
00:40:36.968 –> 00:40:38.188
Chapman: That is the issue we have.
00:40:38.308 –> 00:40:41.368
Chapman: Education does not prepare us to live together.
00:40:41.368 –> 00:40:41.548
Roddy: Yeah.
00:40:41.548 –> 00:40:46.708
Roddy: And there’s teaching and there’s also, we talk about education by immersion.
00:40:48.188 –> 00:40:52.908
Roddy: And maybe our listeners, when I talk to them afterwards, they can voucher this.
00:40:52.908 –> 00:41:06.088
Roddy: People who come to our community events, our team is focused on not just hosting a trade show, but making sure that the people who are there feel valued, they feel like somebody personally cares about them and they’re looking to help them.
00:41:06.508 –> 00:41:14.668
Roddy: And our hope is that our community, people can say, wow, this really feels good, this feels different from any other trade show or association or anything that I’m with.
00:41:14.668 –> 00:41:20.528
Roddy: And that maybe they can learn, have the knowledge and the skills, but also say, this is what it looks like and feels like, right?
00:41:20.528 –> 00:41:22.908
Roddy: You know how you’re feeling valued now?
00:41:22.908 –> 00:41:25.028
Roddy: You can pass that along to other people.
00:41:25.028 –> 00:41:27.128
Roddy: You can lead them towards that.
00:41:27.128 –> 00:41:28.088
Roddy: So that’s what it sounds like.
00:41:28.088 –> 00:41:33.268
Roddy: There’s a formal education, and there’s also if people experience it, then they can say, oh, I can do this for other people.
00:41:33.268 –> 00:41:38.768
Chapman: Yeah, I can teach you a lot about playing basketball, but until you get on the court and play it, it’s hard.
00:41:38.768 –> 00:41:40.408
Chapman: Until you apply that skill.
00:41:40.408 –> 00:41:49.108
Chapman: So again, my concern is there’s a lot of nice people who’ve run companies that say, look, that’s a great example.
00:41:49.108 –> 00:41:56.108
Chapman: And then they retire, and somebody else is promoted, and the company falls apart overnight because it’s not sustainable.
00:41:56.108 –> 00:42:04.288
Chapman: The only way we are going to have sustainable cultures, like you just talked about, is when our education system gives us those skills.
00:42:04.488 –> 00:42:15.088
Chapman: It is, we have learned, we didn’t know this, but we have learned that you can teach people the skills of caring, both at work, at home, and in our communities.
00:42:15.088 –> 00:42:24.708
Chapman: And when we do so, we see profound changes in human behavior and health, and the world where everybody matters, okay?
00:42:24.708 –> 00:42:30.348
Chapman: And not just the senior executives, not, you know, successes, not money, power, and possession.
00:42:30.828 –> 00:42:35.108
Chapman: Success is living life fully with the gifts you have in service of others.
00:42:35.108 –> 00:42:37.388
Chapman: And that’s what I hope the message people get.
00:42:37.388 –> 00:42:41.028
Chapman: Until we change education, we are not going to fix this issue.
00:42:41.028 –> 00:42:42.548
Chapman: It’s not sustainable.
00:42:42.548 –> 00:42:48.708
Chapman: Again, it could be a nice individual like you who’s blessed with this, but that’s not going to heal the world.
00:42:48.708 –> 00:42:58.088
Chapman: We need to change education to prepare people to become leaders at home, in our communities, and at work, where we see people as our purpose.
00:42:59.048 –> 00:43:04.548
Roddy: Yeah, we can’t be subtle and cross our fingers and hope there’s actual action that needs to take place.
00:43:04.548 –> 00:43:06.668
Roddy: That does it for this episode of The Trusted Advisor.
00:43:06.668 –> 00:43:13.648
Roddy: If you enjoyed our discussion, be sure to subscribe to the RSPA YouTube channel and the Trusted Advisor podcast so you never miss an episode.
00:43:13.648 –> 00:43:18.248
Roddy: Before we go, big thanks again to Bob Chapman for sharing his wisdom with us today.
00:43:18.248 –> 00:43:26.108
Roddy: Thanks also to RSPA Marketing Director, Chris Arnold for his production work, Joseph McDade for our music, and last but not least, thanks so much to you for listening.
00:43:26.468 –> 00:43:33.548
Roddy: Our goal at the RSPA is to accelerate the success of our members in the retail technology ecosystem by providing knowledge and connections.
00:43:33.548 –> 00:43:37.408
Roddy: For more information, visit our website at gorspa.org.
00:43:37.408 –> 00:43:40.808
Roddy: Thanks for listening and goodbye everybody.
